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Post by Mayberry on Oct 24, 2007 19:29:10 GMT -5
Just stopping by to say hello. HELLO! J
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Post by Sunshine on Oct 28, 2007 11:32:29 GMT -5
I am so swamped with my Christmas wreath business right now that I haven't had time to journal. However, this doesn't mean that my mind has quit working.
One of my workers is planning a trip to Las Vegas, and they were discussing it. This brought to my mind the last time B and I were in Vegas.
We were there to celebrate our 38th anniversary, and attend a convention. I hated it there because of all the girls handing out their sex tracts on the sidewalks to all the men.
One morning, I awakened early, and B was gone. He didn't come back until almost noon. He said he thought I would like to sleep in ( which I never do) so he went to have breakfast, and he got lost. I was totally angry, but I didn't know he was a S/A so I had no thoughts along those lines. He took me out and bought me a beautiful ring for our anniversary. I have worn it every day since, but I have taken it off and won't wear it until I have some answers about where he was that day.
This is almost a daily occurrence for me. Something will come up that will bring up some question in my mind about the past. If there is no disclosure about his past, it is going to eat me alive. If I had any gumption, I would ask him right out about this, and I will. And I have. But he has the ability to stonewall and stop me right in my tracks when it comes to this. He is a master at manipulating me- he knows exactly what to do and what to say. I don't think I ever will have disclosure on anything, and this is how my life will be. It will be no more real than it has been. What I would really like is to be the one who makes the choice about my future based on whether or not I can live with what he has done while he has been married to me, not based on what he does only today. I want to know what I am forgiving him for. I want to know so I don't wonder about every trip, every friend, every out of town job, every strip club, every vacation. I am so sick of this that I sometimes wish I could just drown myself in a bottle, which the last time I did I ended up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning, collapsed veins, and almost losing my life. Which I won't do, because (me laughing) alcohol isn't allowed on my diet.
Back to work here. Have to get ready for the girls-
5 more weeks-
Sunshine
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Post by browneyedgirl on Oct 28, 2007 14:16:02 GMT -5
Sunshine I'm sorry about that memory.
I find myself in the same boat. About a week and a half ago now, my H made the big disclosure about the extent of his SA. Outside of the horrendous mental images that has brought me, I find myself questioning everything, every extended absence from home, every 'drinking beers with the guys after hockey or softball', the times I couldn't reach him on his cell phone etc etc. It is certainly a huge struggle.
You absolutely have a right to know. This is not just a fidelity issue for us, it is a health issue too. I have a dr's appt to get tested for STD's this week. We cannot assume that they were practicing safe sex in the depths of their addiction.. Even if they were, condoms are not wholly effective in preventing STD's. If you haven't done so, I would urge you to get tested.
You do have gumption Sunshine. You are getting stronger, learning about this addiction and you will reach a place where you will not fall victim to stonewalling or manipulation. Remember God wants the truth out too and He will help that happen.
If I may share something, I was reading in your journal the afternoon of our last d-day. I don't know what happened but I completely broke down. I cried and cried and cried for the first time in a long time. I sat here at my computer talking to God and begging Him to allow the truth to be revealed to me. I prayed that he give my H the strength to finally come clean. I talked to Him for a long time.
After that, I did some research on the places that my anonymous source mentioned in the letter I received. It was very diffiicult but I needed to know these ugly truths.
That night when I sat down to talk to H, my heart was racing and beating so hard in my chest. I told him what I knew, I told him he needed to let me make my own choices and that I deserved nothing less than 100% honesty. God gave me the strength to be brave and unfailing. When I sensed a minimzation coming on, I said 'don't lie to me, tell the truth'. I had to say that many times, but I think he was truthful. I don't know that every single detail is out, but more than enough is on the table for me to make my choice.
I am not sure at what point I will feel ready to forgive, but it is certainly not now. I think I need to process all of this first. I don't want to withhold it, I just don't think I'm capable of it at the moment.
You deserve to make your choice, you deserve to have the truth. God thinks so, I think so, and every SO who has dealt with SA thinks so. It is imperative to both of your healings to get the truth on the table.
My H's counsellor keeps cautioning me not to ask for details of the sex acts themselves. That it prolongs healing, is very painful and is not really necessary. I have to agree. I don't want that info, but I do want to know when, where, with how many etc. These type of details are fully within our rights to know.
I think you will get your truth Sunshine. Just keep praying for it and I know you will receive it.
You are in my prayers.
BEG
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Post by Sunshine on Oct 28, 2007 17:59:55 GMT -5
BEG-
You are on my heart. I wish I could give you a hug. You are so understanding what I am saying, because you are going through the same things. You are dealing with the same issues- meaning sex with many women, and actual cheating, and the lies on top of it, and the destruction of our very lives.
I am going to the Dr. in a couple of months, and will do as you say and get checked for stds. I have asked B if he ever had unprotected sex, and he has said no, but as you say, it is not 100% safe, and I believe that at the height of his addiction, he was drinking heavily, so who knows.
I agree with what you need to know. I don't care what they actually did- after all, there are only so many places to put it. I want to know the who, when, and where, and why. He has said he didn't sleep with them more than once. I want to know if they were hookers, or bar flies, or lot lizards, or the lady next door. I want to know where they had sex- motels, or my truck, or my home. I want to know how much effort he put into getting them. I want to know if he ever thought of what he was doing to me. I want to understand how he prepared himself for seeing me after- how he could look at me, and touch me, and take what I willingly gave to him in the name of love, knowing what he had done, and then doing the same thing over and over again.
You know, it is a funny thing, but even now, today, I don't doubt his love for me. I believe that he did what he did, in spite of the love that we had, not because of what I did or didn't do. But what makes me sad is that I didn't have the choice, to chose to stay with him in spite of who he was, or to live it with someone else who would have been honest with me, and who would have treasured me wholly for who I am. I probably would have stayed with him, but now I'll never know, because that choice was taken from me.
My heart goes out to you in your sorrow. I pray for your healing, and for your family. I love you, BEG.
Sunshine
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Post by whoami on Oct 28, 2007 18:35:15 GMT -5
Hi Sunshine,
I think I will be sad for the choices I didn't have either, for so many years. Including the choice to decide if I should take a chance on a different man who could have been "healthier," and the chance to have children. I want to live the rest of my life not resenting these lack of choices, tho. It's a challange sometimes, but must be part of what recovery is all about.
I will remember to ask that whatever blocks or false beliefs (or fears) B might have, in fully disclosing to you, be removed in my prayers for you and him. You absolutely need the truth to heal, and as my sponser told my H, so does he.
If you have time sometime, can you explain about the sex tracts the girls hand out in Vegas? My H had to turn down a "reward trip" to Vegas earlier this year, it was not good for his "image," but he just couldn't face all the temptation out there. I know enough about the area to have been relieved he said no to going, but I'm sure there's still so much I'm naive about in this world. I would appreciate education about what's on a sex tract!
Thanks Sunshine, and all blessings your way, Who
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Post by Sunshine on Oct 28, 2007 20:01:31 GMT -5
Hi Who-
I have just a minute here- I come in when I'm cold to warm my little fingers-
We are so connected by this evil thing that has gotten into our lives. I'm sorry you have no children. I am sorry too, that there are no do-overs in this life. I think one lesson that my father often said to me as a child- you made your bed, now lie in it. Maybe that is why I never looked closely at what was happening- maybe subconsciously I felt that I had to make the best of what I had.
In Vegas, girls just walked around the streets handing out information on where to find sex, phone numbers, and so on. It upset me, because they didn't even care if the man was with a woman. The papers were laying all over the sidewalk, and anyone who wanted a good time wouldn't have to look very hard. You are lucky your H didn't take the trip. It is almost like you can feel the sin in the air there.
Thanks for checking in Who-
Love you
Sunshine
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 29, 2007 12:59:02 GMT -5
Hi Sunshine.... I have read a bit about how your H wants to share what the Lord is doing in his life - while I applaud that willingness, I pray that he will also recognize how important it is for you to know what you need to know in order to heal. Stonewalling, and manipulating (especially manipulation) can't fit long term into a successful recovery. I don't really know how else to say what I see there. I pray that you will be able to decide what it is that you "really"( I like what LU said elsewhere, about asking yourself how knowing will help you heal) need to know in order to move forward, strong enough to ask for that from your H, and that your H will be strong enough to tell you. I agree with whoami that he needs that in order to fully heal as well. ((((Sunshine)))))
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Post by browneyedgirl on Oct 29, 2007 14:18:12 GMT -5
Sunshine, I am going to have to have a box of tissue ready when I come to your journal.
I love you too.
I understand your struggle regarding how B could face you after having acted out. I ask my H the same thing. I want to know what process allowed him to shamelessly look into my eyes, plan weekend trips, nights out with me etc. I just can't comprehend it. Recently, I had a male friend for whom I started to develop some 'fuzzy' feelings. Although nothing happened, I was wracked with guilt. I could not even look my H in the eye, even in the midst of all of his horrible revelations. It was a pretty innocent situation, but I ended up confessing it to him because I just couldn't bear keeping a secret.
So after having experienced so much guilt over something relatively minor, I really, really can't comprehend how he could face me over and over after what he had done. And so many times? It just blows my mind.
I know what you mean about knowing that B loves you. I think they love us as much as they are capable of doing so. So much of what I have read talks about addicts being emotionally immature. They want what they want for their immediate gratification and really don't think about how it affects others. They are really emotionally broken. Do they love us, yes I think they do in the best way that they know how.
I have thought this for a long time, and my H said this to me the other day. 'I have loved you to the best of my ability'. It sounds trite but I think there is a world of truth in that statement. They love us as best as they know how, and as they know better we hope they will love us better.
You deserve to make your choice based on the truth. It will be there for you to make.
It sounds like your H is really on the road to healing, and for that I am so happy for you. I can understand why he wants to shield you from full disclosure (for both your sakes) but it is necessary. Any sex addiction counsellor worth their salt would agree.
You may have seen me mention Dr Doug Weiss. He is an SA expert and a recovering SA himself. He uses a polygraph in his practice! He says that an addict lives in a verbal reality and can be incapable of true honesty. He tells partners to believe behaviors rather than their words. In order to encourage the SA's to come clean, he uses the polygraph in one of the initial appointments to get the truth on the table. Then the polygraphs continue at intervals to assure the partner that there has been no more acting out. I think this also helps motivate the SA to stay clean.
It might sound controversial, but it just goes to show the importance of the truth. We have to come clean to be clean and to stay clean.
OK, I am going to stop hijacking your journal now. Its just so nice to talk to you!
Oh, one more thing...would you be willing to post pictures of your wreaths? I'd love to see what you're working on!
BEG
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Post by whoami on Oct 30, 2007 11:00:59 GMT -5
Hi Sunshine, Just wanted to say Hi, and thank you for that Vegas info. I wondered if the tracts had descriptions of what acts they do, photos, other tawdry junk, etc. If I can imagine it, it probably occurs, and even things I can't imagine. I'm sure in that town,nothing is sacred. And besides the obvious, I don't think all the glitz, and crowds and noise is something that would appeal to either H or me. Small to zero chance we will ever end up there....even tho H was practically forced!
My sis and bil love to gamble, and they loved their trip to Vegas and want to go back. Even tho they are "normies" I can't help but wonder how my sister felt about things like the girls handing out tracts, etc. Tho they know about H's addiction, I can't help but feel they think we are "weak" when it comes to sexual things they view as innocuous. Even before this subject came up tho, I've been inclined to ask God to draw them closer to him. They are just so "self sufficient," if that makes sense at all. (I'm not sure what it is, I worry about their safety at harvest time, and maybe I'm thinking of their spiritual safety too?) Sorry for this hyjack, duh!
Anyway, I hope the wreaths are going well, that you're staying safe and healthy, and I'm still praying about the disclosure issue....
PS BEG...I know the polygraph thing is controversial, but that technique would really "cut thru the mustard," wouldn't it?! I have to admire Weiss's convictions (and cajoles) on that one. The truth could set so many of us free. Love, Whoami
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Post by whoami on Nov 1, 2007 9:34:12 GMT -5
Hello! Just stopping in to say I'm thinking of you. I think B is home with you now. You are both in my prayers, just a reminder!
Much love to you, Who
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Post by Sunshine on Nov 1, 2007 12:34:52 GMT -5
Hi Who-
I wouldn't let my H go to Vegas if it was the last place on Earth. I asked him last night if he has ever had sex with anyone there, and he said no. If he had had sex, he would have asked me what prompted the question, and would have sidestepped and not given me any answer to the question. I tried to get other answers, but I can tell you from what he said that he is not interested in talking about the past, not in a mean way, but in a concerned and caring way. I think the only way he would talk about it would be if he was told to by an outside person, and even then I'm not so sure.
I'm sorry I don't have time to respond to y'all now- some things are too introspective for me to write about but I am thinking about you all.
Sunshine
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 2, 2007 6:27:07 GMT -5
Sunshine, sister....I was a little disturbed by this, "he would have asked me what prompted the question, and would have sidestepped." Hmmm. I know you don't have time to write right now, but when you do, I'm really interested in hearing more about how this makes you feel. I'm glad your H is back home, and I hope his presence helps lift some of your wreathly burden. My love is with you. J
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Post by Sunshine on Nov 3, 2007 10:26:23 GMT -5
Today I feel like there is no hope of ever finding out the truth about my life. B went to his support group last night- I am thankful that he has them to turn to. It is where he is accepted, no matter what he has done in the past. It is with them that he has shared about his deep, dark secret life.
I waited outside and while I was waiting, I finished the Carne's book, Out of the Shadows. I have studied the issue, because I need to understand the origin and progression of the addiction, in order to have a place to start healing our wounded relationship.
When B finished his meeting, I told him that I had been trying to understand the dynamics of how I allowed or permitted him to live in his addiction. He said, again, that it had nothing to do with me, and that he doesn't believe that there is anything to be gained by digging up the past, which is water under the bridge, instead of just being thankful for his healing. He really didn't leave any door open for further discussion. I had hoped that he would do the class at recovery Nation because I think that he needs to deal with the deep seated issue of abandonment that was the beginning of this whole problem, and until this is addressed, I don't think we have a prayer for working on our relationship.
It is doing me no good to read all these books and articles so that I can understand this issue , both the S/A and also the way it has affected our entire relationship, and that of our children. He is happy with things the way they are. Things are the same way they have always been. My needs and feelings don't count for anything. Maybe I never noticed what was going on because I would have been powerless to change anything anyway. Anyway, I like crap in my shoe. Just ask me.
S
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 3, 2007 13:18:06 GMT -5
What did you feel, besides hopeless? Were you angry that your husband has a place to go? Were you jealous that others knew his secrets, but you, his beloved did not? Did you long for a place where you felt accepted? Tell me more about what's going on in your heart, dear friend.
Well, dammit, *I* am proud of you for trying to understand the co-dependent part...your role in your MUTUAL dynamic. This paragraph really angers me on your behalf. I *hope* he means that his sin was not caused by you ("nothing to do with you") because that is true. You did not cause his sin. However, his sin is within the context of your marriage, and therefore has EVERYTHING to do with you, IMO. It is not "his business." It is YOUR business.
This is not the distant past we're talking about. This is not a past disassociated from your marriage vows; this is active adultery within the context of your marriage. He gave "his parts" to you, they became "yours" and you have the absolute right to know the truth of what he did with "your stuff." The water under the damned bridge left a trail of toxins in its wake, and you have the right to do water-quality testing, dammit. I'm angry (and I'm sorry I'm angry)....I'm grateful he has stopped his sin, but I feel that he is a fool to believe that you're going to smile gratefully and drink from the water of your marriage without a mutual clean-up effort of the fouled water just because he's no longer actively fouling it.
I think this is a valid concern, in my personal experience.
You are not powerless to change anything; you really are not. You are not happy with how things are, as I'm reading it. Your needs and feelings DO matter, and if they do not matter to him, he is not being a Christian husband to you, IMO. His role is to be heroic in his marriage to you, to love with self-sacrifice, as Christ loved the church. I posted this in LU's journal some time past...maybe it would be useful to you? Christ wasn't a dodging ninny; Christ spoke the truth so deeply he was crucified.
****
Sunshine, honey, I'm really sorry you're going through this right now. I will hold you and your husband in prayer. I'm sorry I'm angry on your behalf right now....and I hope I do not stir your pot in completely negative ways. It's not my intent. I love you, and I'm nearby. I'll try to lay down my anger and return to a gentler path...J
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Post by browneyedgirl on Nov 3, 2007 13:35:29 GMT -5
Sunshine I'm sorry you are feeling this way.
Is B in a 12 step group? If so, (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) they encourage and even work with members on disclosure. Of course B wants to proceed with his recovery and never look back. When a person understands the magnitude of what they have done, perhaps its human nature to run as far away from it as possible. To some degree it is normal to want to do that, but its not the right thing to do IMO. To do that is to bypass the important step of making amends to those you have hurt.
Recovery is not as easy as going forward and sinning no more. Not when there are other people involved who have been hurt along the way. In my faith we confess our sins to a priest. Of course we have a direct line to God, but the act of confession is very important for us as well. The priest assigns us penance after hearing out sins. We are forgiven, but there is an act of sacrifice (usually a series of prayers, contemplations or even acts of service) that help us atone for our wrongs. This process of confession-forgiveness-penance has a lot of parallels to addiction recovery in my opinion.
Your feelings DO count! I am getting a little hot under the collar here because I almost feel that your H is being patronizing towards you on this subject. I can almost picture him patting you on the head and saying, 'don't worry your head about it dear'. I'm sorry I don't mean to insult your H, but that is the sense I get from what I'm reading. Its not up to him to determine what is 'water under the bridge'. That is a joint decision, not a unilateral one.
Of course, I guess you have to consider that he may not be able to give you full disclosure now. He may not be at the point in his recovery where that is even possible. But I think he has to work towards that point. There is a major difference between saying, 'I want to share these things with you, but I am not yet ready' and 'Don't worry on it dear, let's move forward now to a better life'. Am I making sense in my ramblings here?
I can't remember but are you involved in any type of support for you? Outside of NP? Have you looked into the Recovery Nation partners workshop? I am re-starting it and find that getting my thoughts out is already proving to be very helpful to me. I've been doing a lot of reading on the Partners board there too and its been very enlightening as well.
Right now, I think you should focus on reading that will help you. Instead of reading SA books, why not Partner of SA books? Find out what might help with your healing, there are many resources out there. I would be happy to send you the links to a Dr Weiss video I downloaded if it will help you. It is specifically for partners and I found it very, very helpful.
As partners, we need to make sure we have the tools to protect ourselves emotionally, to heal from our past hurts, and to gain the strength to come into our own rights. We cannot continue the patterns of the past where we may have been in denial or even enabling our partners' addictions in some way. We need to educate ourselves about those things so that we can get healthy and live a fulfilled life. And as we grow and get stronger, the old ways that we used to be treated aren't going to be acceptable anymore. We won't stand for blameshifting, denial, minimizing etc because we will recognize it for what it is, and hopefully have gained the tools to avoid being victims of it in the future.
I don't know what to say Sunshine. You are powerless over your H, but you are not powerless over yourself. I disagree that you like crap in your shoe. If you did, you would not be asking the questions that you are, and you wouldn't be experiencing this internal dialogue. B's addiction had nothing to do with you, in that he is 100 percent correct. You weren't aware of what was going on because you loved and trusted him. OK, maybe in retrospect there were signs, but how could you have suspected at the time?
No Sunshine, you don't like crap. I know and you know that you don't like it and we both know that you don't want any more of it You have been victimized but I think those days are over.
Hugs and double hugs to you right now. You have been weighing heavily on my mind since your last post and I have been worried about you. I can hear your hurt and it troubles me deeply. If you ever need a private ear to vent to, you can PM me anytime. I know I have a lot to say but I am also good at shutting up and listening.
BEG
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