SUNSHINE or SHADOW

[LookingUp]

((((((((((((((((((( Sunshine )))))))))))))))))

Your post brought tears to my eyes. I can't imagine the pain you'd gone through trying to maintain a relationship with your daughter. I'd be a puddle of tears if I came home to find my house demolished like that. I can't imagine the pain you feel in needing to stand back and wait for her to come to herself. I pray she will be like the Prodigal son and recognize how good she had it when in relationship with her parents.

Since your daughter was separated from you in infancy for a short while, could she have some detachment disorder or failure to bond issues? I think I suffered from a mild form of that but have mostly come to terms with it. I often think that may be why I view my mother 180 degrees differently then my sister does?

I'm so sorry you're going through this pain. At least in my case, I realized MY choice to divorce their dad was instrumental in causing the fall out - but you can't pinpoint the why - and that must be difficult to bear. Thank God - HE knows.

LookingUp

[Sunshine]

Mayberry and LU-

I think the only thing that really hurts me deeply is my relationship with Joy. I treated her as I wanted my mother to treat me, and she treated me as my mom had treated me. What made this especially hard was that I took a chance on having her, but I wanted a daughter so desperately that I was willing to take the chance. Before she was born whenever I would tell B that I wanted it to be a girl, he would say that he didn't want a daughter, because they always end up breaking their daddy's hearts. How true. Lu, maybe she had trouble bonding- maybe that is the answer. We pray daily for her and her family. Just the other day, my 4 yr old grandson, who loves my daughter's 4 yr old son, was telling me how when he gets his new room his cousin can stay with him. Then he asked why he can't see his cousin. It breaks my heart. He talks about his cousin all the time, and I don't even think my daughter's son remembers his cousin, because he hasn't been taught to care or to love. This is where my brokenheartedness comes from. The thing with B is one thing, but she was born of my body.

Love
Sunshine

[Mayberry]

I treated her as I wanted my mother to treat me, and she treated me as my mom had treated me.

There's a universe in that statement.

I'm holding you in prayer.

J

[Sunshine]

As far as Joy is concerned, I am sorry I got into this issue. This is something that is way beyond my ability to change, but is part of a daily heartache for our entire family. This is one thing that we have laid at the feet of Our Father, and we believe that nothing is beyond his power. The only problem I have in this is our gift of free will.

I read the article on the general board about orgasm addicts. I posted a response there, and the article itself was so unsettling to me.

I have been thinking of B and the idea of full disclosure of those years that the locust has eaten. This is 40 years. Does that number sound significant?

I am trying to prepare for having a discussion with him about what he did , when it started, who it was done with, and when it ended. Lately, I have been thinking of questions of envolvement- how it made him feel- whether he thought of me, and if so,how did he he think of me in the relation of his activities.

It is important for me to ask everything that I want to know, because once my questions have been answered, I won't go back there.

I have been afraid to address this issue, because of the fear that reliving the experiences might trigger him to act out again. I am not sure of how to go about this in a safe way. Maybe I should give him longer to recover, but we are just moving along in our new life, which is surprisingly just like our old life, but to me it is like the old life being attached to me with a ball and chain, and me dragging it whereever I go.

My sister believes that I shouldn't bring up these issues. Her opinion was based on the opinion that she could not forgive if she knew the extent of the addiction. She said she would be eaten by jealousy, by unforgiveness, and by the need to get even. She believes that it is satan trying to upset B's recovery.

I have thought about her opinion, and have been trying to understand my need to know. I believe it is for my healing. I want to put his actions in the context of how we were living our lives, how his actions have effected our lives and the lives of our children. I want to try to understand his depravity. It is like I want to get into the pit with him, to let him see the result of his actions. I want him to see the reality of the pain that his selfish acts have caused me, and I think this is the only way to bring it home to him.

Meanwhile, his recovery is wonderful. he is wonderful. He is truly being the man I always thought he was.

Sunshine

[LookingUp]

sunshine said:

As far as Joy is concerned, I am sorry I got into this issue. This is something that is way beyond my ability to change, but is part of a daily heartache for our entire family. This is one thing that we have laid at the feet of Our Father, and we believe that nothing is beyond his power. The only problem I have in this is our gift of free will.

I'm glad you were able to share that painful part of your life. Now we know other ways to pray for you and yours.

I have been thinking of B and the idea of full disclosure of those years that the locust has eaten. This is 40 years. Does that number sound significant?

Very significant - glad he's decided to move into the Promised Land!

I am trying to prepare for having a discussion with him about what he did , when it started, who it was done with, and when it ended. Lately, I have been thinking of questions of envolvement- how it made him feel- whether he thought of me, and if so,how did he he think of me in the relation of his activities.

In many ways I feel blessed that my husband wouldn't answer my questions. I know I would have asked things that would have been painful for me and would have caused me to heal differently. Now my questions are what might pop-up in the future because of his past. Did he have an affair? If so, could I be a step-mom or could he be sued for child support? Did he post the lingerie shots of me on the net where my PA son could find them? Has he done anything illegal that might get him arrested? Do I need checked for STDs? Could some woman drop in on our front porch thinking he'd take her in (that almost happened when we were dating as a married woman decided to leave her husband for him and had bought tickets to go to his town - but I thought it was because he was a compassionate listener and caring person.) For me, the things I want to know are the things that could affect our future - I would want to be somewhat prepared - at least not taken totally off guard. Of course, he won't answer those questions either.

I have been afraid to address this issue, because of the fear that reliving the experiences might trigger him to act out again. I am not sure of how to go about this in a safe way.

Maybe him and you could discuss the timing of it. Possibly even write down the questions so he could say which ones he's ready to discuss and which ones might be best to wait on and have him commit to a time line for further disclosure. Just a thought - take what you want and leave the rest.

She believes that it is satan trying to upset B's recovery.

Or satan trying to get you upset enough that it will hinder your spiritual growth? ... or to get you to end your marriage?

have been trying to understand my need to know. I believe it is for my healing.

God knows the motive..... I'm sure He'll show it to you. For me, I wanted to know the nitty-gritty because at the time I wanted self-pity because it would put me back in my own addictions... where I could feel safe; but God's plan was me learning to run to him to feel safe. I also wanted to know because I wanted my husband to feel the pain and shame to help even the pain and horror I felt by his betrayals. Neither of those are fruit of the spirit.

I want to put his actions in the context of how we were living our lives, how his actions have effected our lives and the lives of our children.

Can you discover that without needing to learn the nitty gritty of how his sin played out in his daily life? For me, I'm thankful I don't have those word pictures in my brain - rolling around and having satan bring them up and taunt me with them. My imagination is plenty.

I want to try to understand his depravity.

I don't think we're wired to understand sin. I admit to my food addiction; but I can't with my logical mind understand food addicts who will eat food from the garbage, spoiled food, eat until they vomit -- I never got into that level of depravity. I can't even understand how I could eat to the place where I physically was in pain from a distended belly. Sin makes no sense to the brain or our spirits. After all, that's what Adam and Eve thought they were getting (the ability to understand good from evil) when they ate the apple - and it didn't help them understand sin; it just helped them be sinners.

It is like I want to get into the pit with him, to let him see the result of his actions. I want him to see the reality of the pain that his selfish acts have caused me, and I think this is the only way to bring it home to him.

For me, I am learning to trust the Holy Spirit to perform that as promised in 2 Timothy 3:16. I realize I've ranted, raved, logicized (is that a word), cried, been mute and nothing I do has made a dent in his hard heart. I know only the Holy Spirit can turn that hard thing into a heart of flesh.

Meanwhile, his recovery is wonderful. he is wonderful. He is truly being the man I always thought he was.

That's terrific news. I'm so happy that he's choosing health and healing. I'm happy for him and for you.

Having said everything I said above; I realize God made us all different. I think some women need to know the nitty gritty before they can heal. Thus, if you're one of them - I pray that you get enough disclosure to heal but not enough to harm.

LookingUp

[Sunshine]

LU-

Thank you for discussing this with me. You have so much sense when it comes to these things, and maybe it will keep me from blundering my way through.

Maybe I will wait until he is doing which ever step it is where he goes to the people he has hurt, and when he comes to me, maybe we can go through this in a non-triggering way, that will give me what I need yet not hurt him.

I want to share this- most of the information that I have came from his inner circle list, that I confronted him with. He fessed up to what was on the circle, and he knew it broke my heart.

A couple days after I found out about the other women, and porn shops in addition to the MB & P, I called him to dinner. I thought he was taking a long time to wash, and I was sitting at the table waiting for him.
When he finally came, he was carrying a basin of warm water, soap and lotion, and had a towel draped over his shoulder. Without a word, he knelt before me, took off my shoe, and proceeded to wash one foot and then the other. Neither of us said a word, but both of us were crying silent tears. After he finished, he said Grace and we had dinner. That was such a moving experience that we both carry in our hearts, but neither of us have spoken about it

Sunshine

[LookingUp]

One time about a month after Mr. LUs last slip, I could tell he still hadn't settled down inside. I washed his feet - then he washed mine. Like you, we never discussed it. But he was less agitated after that. It was a few days after that he said he'd go to counseling - then he took several months to finally do that - but it started his heart going in (what I consider) the right direction.

I think foot washing is such a beautiful ceremony. I washed our pastor's feet one day after he'd been struggling with some stuff. It was the first time anybody had ever washed his feet. I did ask my husband and his wife permission before I did that. BUt there were no men (except him) in the prayer group to do that and I felt God was leading me to do it - so I did.

LookingUp

[Mayberry]

What a beautiful witness from you both. I think I may have to go do that. Thank you. J

[Mayberry]

I am trying to prepare for having a discussion with him about what he did , when it started, who it was done with, and when it ended. Lately, I have been thinking of questions of envolvement- how it made him feel- whether he thought of me, and if so,how did he he think of me in the relation of his activities.

I had a lot of questions too, and as I wrote on my journal yesterday, not all of my questions *seem* answered.

Here is a link to some of the questions I landed on after I thought about what *I* needed to know: lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=journal&action=display&thread=1184584227&page=5#1186396921

LookingUp wrote some things that were very helpful in this post: lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=journal&action=display&thread=1184584227&page=12#1188397959

I have to confess I did not *want* to agree with her about the gradual nature of disclosure, but I have found that she was pretty "spot-on" in the nature of how much Mr. Mayberry was *able* to disclose early in his sobriety. I've noticed that the more Mr. Mayberry actually looks at the roots of his addiction, the more disclosure overall he is willing to bring to the table. The more he reads, the more he is willing to share. The more he talks, the more he is willing to talk.

Your mileage may vary. You are (obviously) dealing with a different set of issues in your husband's acting out. And a much longer time frame than the one that I am dealing with.

It is important for me to ask everything that I want to know, because once my questions have been answered, I won't go back there.

Sunshine: I'd really like to know more about the "I won't go back there." I can assume what I would mean if I typed that, but I'd like to hear you talk about what that means to you, if you are willing/would find it beneficial.

I have been afraid to address this issue, because of the fear that reliving the experiences might trigger him to act out again. I am not sure of how to go about this in a safe way. Maybe I should give him longer to recover, but we are just moving along in our new life, which is surprisingly just like our old life, but to me it is like the old life being attached to me with a ball and chain, and me dragging it whereever I go.

I felt that ball and chain VERY STRONGLY in July and August (first two months after the understanding of "Mr. Mayberry has a problem" hit).

I *still* worry that my questions, reactions and feelings will "cause" Mr. Mayberry to plummet in mood and be vulnerable to acting out or shutting down. For me, I've come to see this is an area of my co-dependence. So often, I try to "mentally manage" his possible reactions to my needs/desires that I end up not being clear, direct and honest in my communications. I become uneasy and resentful. I "set him up" in my head as the vulnerable one, when the truth is that we are BOTH vulnerable people who BOTH need to heal. I don't know how well this is going to communicate in written form. Essentially, I am having to become more adult in expressing my own needs and then stepping back and letting Mr. Mayberry be HIS own adult. He is responsible for his recovery. I am responsible for treating him gently and lovingly, but NOT to the point where I "stuff" my own feelings and reactions, needs and desires.

I will pray for the Spirit to speak clearly to your heart and let you know when your words/questions will be *inspired* and your husband will be similarly inspired to speak truly and clearly to you.

Love and prayers to you and for you throughout the day. J

[Sunshine]

Thank you LU for sharing about your foot washing, too. I had not heard of anyone doing this other than in the Bible, and because the emotions that it brings forth, I believe we should do it more often part of healing.

Mayberry- It was good to re-read what you and LU had written previously about our needing to know. Both you and I are so similar in our needs, and you are so much better at putting them into words.

I know from my past history, that if B and I go through the process of full disclosure, and I go through my grief process fully, and come to a point of forgiveness , that I won't bring it up again. These things will be reduced to "bullets" but won't have the power to capture my imagination, and have residence there, influencing what I think and how I feel. Until I go through this process completely, these things are making me live a double life, one in my imagination, and the one I live. I also believe in what the Bible says about forgiveness, that I am only forgiven if I forgive.

I believe that I am the only one that knows what I need to know. It seems that B's advice is to share what others feel is safe for me to know. So, I will wait until he is on whatever step that is, and then I will tell him what I need to know.

As far as our marital relations go, after a hiatus of 5 wks when he was working out of town, we resumed when he returned. I told him right off that the difference was that it was no longer all about him. ( I had been reduced to the equivalent of a blow-up-doll, and I wasn't going back there. ) I told him that all he would have to do is to make ME want it. We light candles, also, and pray for it to be pure and Holy before God. He has not had the broken weenie problem.

We are always tuned into the moods of our men, and that we want to wait for what we need until they are comfortable, or they feel like sharing, or they are ready. The time isn't right, because they had a bad day, or they are tired, or they aren't ready. I wish that B would simply understand that the new beginning can't truly start until the old has been lain to rest.

Mayberry, you are so right when you say that we Both need to heal. I believe that we just have to stop treating them as fragile- B needs to come face to face with the trash he has done. Of course he doesn't want to address these things. The numbers alone are mindnumbing. Suppose he only did it 10 times per year- we would be looking at 400 times! Maybe part of the problem is that it is so huge that he can't remember.

Sunshine

[Mayberry]

Maybe part of the problem is that it is so huge that he can't remember.

Yep. Been there. Heard that answer. Believed that answer. Part of why I let some of my questions "rest" when I got that answer. Another part of the answer I got (though I'm not sure *he* knows he gave it) is that is was MIND-NUMBING behavior. I know, from my own versions of acting out, just how little one can recall after such behavior.

I deeply believe that this will go well for you both. I call down the spirit of healing and lovingkindness for you both in the journey of your marriage. Holy God, I ask you to hold my friend Sunshine and her husband, B, in the hollow of your hand as they face the exhaustion, disconnection and bewilderment of 40 years in the desert of addiction. I ask you to send strength to B--a truly manly strength that is willing to sacrifice his ego, his self and his pride to the joy of union and love. I ask you to send a renewing sweet tidal wave of confidence, gentleness and womanly resolve to my friend Sunshine as she moves into a new area of life. Restore in them both clean and loving spirits; create in them both, O God of Creation, a profound awe and joy in moving together to a new stage of life. Create, Thou who are truth and beyond truth, connection and beyond connection, the loving habits of simple truth and connection, and, if it is your will, ease every obstacle in their way when they speak with one another. Let the Spirit speak from deep within them both--let them fervently want nothing more than to be in harmony with the Great Harmony that is Thy perfect self. I ask these things with confidence that you will answer them, and if I have asked any thing that is to their harm, or, if through ignorance I have not asked for what is Thy perfect will, I ask merely that you hear my intercession for them and give them the good that through ignorance I do not know how to beg of you. Amen and amen.

[Sunshine]

Mayberry-

Thank you so much for your wonderful prayer. It was so beautiful, just as you are.

Mind numbing? It seems almost like he doesn't know the answers when I ask the questions. I think that part of it is that he was drinking when he was most heavily involved in these activities, and I bet that he scared himself in some way which prompted him to quit drinking. maybe it is like that add about your brain on drugs. That is probably the right description for it.

I am going to find all I can find on the internet today about sex addiction. There are so many things I don't know and don't understand.

What I want to know more than anything is when he started being unfaithful to me, and when he stopped.

I couldn't sleep last night, because I kept remembering an incident that happened when we had been married only 7 months. I was 7 months pregnant, and he had gotten tickets to the college homecoming dance. I borrowed a pretty maternity dress, and got ready for the dance. I am an affirmation person, so I asked him how I looked. He said that it wasn't my fault, but pregnant women were a turn-off to him. I turned away so he wouldn't see my tears, but I wonder if my being pregnant was an excuse for him to start cheating. Its funny how we remember little, nothing things when you replay your life.

Sunshine

[gracebyfaith]

Hi Sunshine!

Just stopping in to say hello to you... I'm hoping that the wreath making is going swimmingly!

I am holding you in prayer as you do this "revisiting" of your life and past experiences - I know it can be painful, and I pray that you can feel the Lord's trememdous love for you as you continue in the process. Please remember to take care of yourself as much as possible!

You are in my thoughts...
Much love,
Kerry

[LookingUp]

sunshine said:

maybe it is like that add about your brain on drugs. That is probably the right description for it.

Sounds like a good description. Even without the drinking - since PA produces brain eroto-toxins, he may have been somewhat brain fried and unable to connect with reality to recall what he was doing - just sort of living on auto-pilot. Not sure if I'm trying to make excuses since my husband won't/can't discuss his past behavior with me or not. I know when I was needed to read 15 romance novels a week to get my romance high - I missed a LOT of life and I don't really know what I was doing - going through life by rote. I cook, I clean, I say hi to my kids, I have stop-watch-and-clip-board sex with my ex, and then I read, read, read and fantasize, fantasize, fantasize. I'm so glad God's delivered me from that nightmare. I can see why my boys say I wasn't there for them through their high school years - I wasn't even there for myself, either. We took the kids on a once in a lifetime 2-week driving vacation from the Great Plains to Florida - stopped at many Civil War battlefields, other historic sites, went to Disney, Epcott, Sea World, NASA, Homosassas - and I took my novel with me and would sit and read part of the time while they did stuff - didn't even get out of the car for some of the battlefields. I was such a selfish jerk back then. No wonder they picked their dad to live with. But it's taken me 11 years to see that reality.

What I want to know more than anything is when he started being unfaithful to me, and when he stopped.

One of the questions I've read in several books is: "Why/How would that question help you heal?" I've discovered many of the questions that I thought I needed to know to heal - I can't come up with a logical reason HOW or WHY that would help me heal. If I can't come up with a reason; then maybe I'm wanting to know as a self pain inflicting response. I know that *I* have trouble wanting to feel victim and batted about by my circumstances (something that worked for me as a kid). For me, asking the why or how help me recognize if knowing the answer will help me move forward or keep me stuck in some of my own stuff. Of course, I imagine most people don't have the same old baggage I do, but can only process through my frame of reference.

I borrowed a pretty maternity dress, and got ready for the dance. I am an affirmation person, so I asked him how I looked. He said that it wasn't my fault, but pregnant women were a turn-off to him. I turned away so he wouldn't see my tears, but I wonder if my being pregnant was an excuse for him to start cheating. Its funny how we remember little, nothing things when you replay your life.

My heart broke for you reading that. How rude of him. I was fortunate because my ex loved my big belly and was always patting my lump and he thought pregnant bodies were very sexy. His attitude towards my pregnancies was "Look what *I* did!!!" We always had an active sex life - but doubly active during my pregnancies. For me, that was very validating. But I know some wives whose husbands refused to touch them throughout their pregnancy. Weird how people can be so different.

Any reason you hid your tears?

I'm so sorry you went through that.

[JohnG]

Sunshine,

I just want to say hello and thank you for all of your kind words in my journal.

I don't think that moment you describe before the dance is a nothing moment. It was a defining moment for you clearly. I am ashamed to say that I can imagine myself having said something like that at one point in my life. Today I can think of nothing in this world more beautiful than the sight of a woman I love carrying our child in her body. I hope that someday I will see such a thing though I am painfully aware of how unsuitable I am still to play that role.

I wish you happiness today. You certainly deserve it.

Gratefully,

JohnG