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Post by LookingUp on Nov 13, 2007 10:12:20 GMT -5
Hi grace, Glad you two are talking - that sounds really promising. Glad you were able to make love. I could so understand your desire for him to be repulsed by porn - I pray for that day in our relationship, too. Glad you're having fun together and working on your "nest".
Some days keeping on with keeping on sounds like lots of serenity to me!
LookingUp
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 13, 2007 14:28:49 GMT -5
It's good to have a nice, newsy update from you, gracebyfaith. I'm glad he responded to you. Did you have any reaction to the "week to the day" part--had you been anxious/fretful? This sounds good. Does it meet your needs, as best you know them? I rejoice in your self-knowledge that knowing every "fleeting temptation" would hurt you, while knowing a state of "frequent temptation" is information that you want to know. This seems like wisdom. I'm going to try to steal a page from your book here. Again, this seems like wisdom to me. (Alas, we're not there yet....but maybe someday soooooooon? ?) So, it sounds like he wants you to believe him (that's he's P/MB free) and it sounds like he recognizes your need to heal. How did you feel about his responses? I can empathize with this desire: to have one's partner view P as repulsive. I know our journey has certainly imbued my reactions to "porn as permissable in our culture" with utter disgust. Before, for me, I think it was an intellectual, feminist and moral repulsion. Now, it's personal, and pretty darned emotional and absolute. Perhaps some day your husband will grow enough or grow trusting enough to share with you his own repulsion? I hope so for you both. I think "doing together" is a great way to normalize and rebuild after damage. I know that every time we "do" together, it seems to help us both. I know it's not popular to say, but my life has been much richer since I killed the TV almost 20 years ago. Perhaps you'll find something similar? That sounds a bit depressed....I'm glad for the keeping on (I am!), but are you doing okay? Is there other stuff stressing you right now? Lots of hugs and much love, mingled with many prayers for you and your husband, J
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Post by whoami on Nov 13, 2007 20:37:34 GMT -5
Wow, Grace..this sounds really good to me. And keeping on with keeping on, sounds like taking it one day at a time, which we're supposed to do, if that's what you mean?
Moving forward, in an injured marriage, sounds like some healing is taking place, and continuing to. I like the way you explained your triggers! The swells may be bigger or smaller with the ebb and flow (sorry, I know that's cheesy) but they are not going to wipe out the community! This is good, I like hearing it.
Ok, I admit to a little "greenness" regards the sex, but if that was happening for us, I think it would be progress in itself, and thus, the need to talk about it would diminish. YAY for both of you!
I think the idea of porn and using it again angers my H. And that's a response I can live with. To that question, I don't know if they know the arousal factor we have with porn too (the majority sadly may think it's a male only thing), But I know I just cringe when I think about how we both watched in our last really nice vacation, as an "aide." That was a LONG time ago. And I cringe thinking how clueless I was about the whole issue. Thank God, that will never happen again (with ME anyway!)
2 thumbs up for Grace and DH!
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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 14, 2007 14:18:40 GMT -5
Thank you ladies for the visit and kind words - things are going well, and I appreciate all your love, prayers, and thumbs ups!
H and I, in our recent bout of nest building, framed this set of 3 pics of one of our lady-hams...and I'm posting b/c I love it, want to show off, am bored at work, and am a dork with hardly any "real life" friends to show - no one ever comes to our cave/apartment.
[trigger]Images temporarily disabled by webmaster.i28.photobucket.com/albums/c250/chillinwithdillon/h34.jpg[/IMG][/trigger]
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AmazingGrace
Full Member
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like ME.
Posts: 130
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Post by AmazingGrace on Nov 14, 2007 16:28:48 GMT -5
GBF-- I'm glad to hear that there's been communication & intimacy between you and your husband.
ED is such a tough thing to deal with. As a woman, it leaves us feeling as if we are "not enough." As a man, it leaves him feeling like he is "not enough." And it's one of those problems that builds upon itself. If it fails once, that failure makes a man more nervous the next time (and if he knows that when it fails it makes you doubt his recovery, that's even more reason for it to happen again).
I don't know if it would be counter-active, but in "Every Woman's Battle" the author suggested a time of prayer before making love. God created and blesses our union of intimacy, and it's a part of our life that is certainly worthy of prayer. (I think my own husband would be "wierded out" by inviting God into our bedroom, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work for a different man).
Blessings on you!
Becky
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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 15, 2007 15:50:45 GMT -5
ugh. Why couldn't he just have searched for 'anonymous' p, since we've been married, huh? Knowing that your H has searched for dirty pics of a SPECIFIC woman to wank to throws a whole new wrench into the serenity.
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 15, 2007 18:33:13 GMT -5
(I think my own husband would be "wierded out" by inviting God into our bedroom, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work for a different man). My husband probably would be weirded out by it; however, he weirded me out by inviting mental photos of women into his head when he was making love with me. I'd much rather have God in my bedroom...... After all HE invited the lovemaking process.
Your little hamster is cute. She has a beautiful face. Wish *I* could be that innocent and unhibited around my partner! LookingUp
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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 16, 2007 10:06:25 GMT -5
Thank you for the replies ladies, I wish I had more energy to say more than that, but I simply don't at the moment.
I am in despair yesterday and today. Yesterday I had to leave work, I am fighting a bug but it wasn't only that.
Our CE report showed that CE was "abnormally terminated" - I panicked and ran that "file recovery" program that a lot of us use (I am still afraid to write the name of it in case H ever stumbles his way onto this board, and I wonder why it matters if he knows what it is?!)
I found nothing new, but more old celebrity P - so as I shared elsewhere, I now have new women that the media inundates us with to be triggered over.
I love my H but doubt that I will ever be able to get over this enough to have a healthy marriage - and that's not on him, it's on me. I am not healthy enough to deal with this, in a healthy way. Too new at sobriety, too new a Christian.
I told him about the google searches I found that were slightly questionable, giving up that way to check on him, now that he knows I can, of course he will be uber careful about what he searches for anywhere.
I felt I had to give it up, to get rid of some of the obsession of having that avenue to check.
Frankly, my H disgusts me right now, as sorry as I am to say that. Searching for boobs on the same day as searching for an inscription for our wedding ring, made me unable to wear my wedding ring today. I want to have the inscription sanded out, as it's exactly meaningless to me anymore.
I went off again a little last night. I told my H he sure did ruin things for himself, I doubt I will ever be able to wear lingerie again, poor him, poor me, right? We can't watch TV shows that we use to enjoy together anymore, b/c everything upsets me. Even innocent TV shows, if there is the slightest bit of cleavage or a woman vaguely attractive, I can't do it.
We are probably going to have a no-sex for a month thing. I wanted to know what he felt the benefits were before we agreed to it (in a rare moment of sanity last night, as in, what are we hoping to accomplish by this?), but right now I don't even care what he has to say, I'll just be relieved to not have his hands on me.
See, he lied to me again last night. I had asked him if he has been triggered at all lately, and he said "yes, some guys at work were talking about a movie and the woman in it..."
I said "what woman, what movie?" He said "I don't remember" I said "you are LYING" he said "no, really, I don't remember"
We went on that way for a bit until he finally admitted that he DID remember - I understand why he didn't want to tell me who the woman was, as I get so upset when I see the women I know that he mentally (expletive)ed over and over again, but explained that "I don't want to tell you, as I'm afraid of your reaction" is an honest answer, wheras "I don't remember" is not.
More later, I'm too angry to even write.
OK, I'm back. That lie, "small" as it is, put me back to ground zero in the trust factor. He apologized for lying, but I just don't care. I just don't know if I can do this. I'm not cut out to not be the only woman in H's life. AAARGGGGHHHHH. I hate P, and right now, I hate him.
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 16, 2007 11:07:53 GMT -5
(((((((((((((((((( grace )))))))))))))))))))) I'm sorry he did a stupid thing. I'm sorry he lied about it. Sounds like he swallowed satan's bait - hook, line and sinker. I'm sorry you're feeling unable to meet the challenges right now.
I don't know if you will find this comforting, but it often helps me, "God didn't bring you to it, if He's not going to bring you through it." God will help you grow closer to Him through this challenge. He will help you stay sober in your own battle.
Would it be helpful to complete a 3rd step about what happened yesterday? What boundaries do you have to help you face his lies in a way that isn't so traumatic for you?
It should - especially after he promised to stop doing it and lying about it. That is a logical consequence. Hopefully he will dig himself out of that icky place by choosing healthy behavior in the future.
LookingUp
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Post by whoami on Nov 16, 2007 12:20:40 GMT -5
Grace, you are so in my heart right now.
"No, really, I don't remember." (Are they clones of each other???) I hated the "can't remember..." I still do. It still happens. And being on this board has helped me realize, it's classic addict speak...almost a pathological type of lying. They don't want to hurt us, so I think they "will" themselves amnesia, if only for that moment!! It sooooooo sucks. As if the sex sin isn't enough in itself, they just don't GET how the lying compounds it. But I guess it's just so ingrained in the nature of this addiction.
I put my wedding ring away and didn't wear it for 3 years, I threw his in the toilet and flushed it. The symbolism of the rings is just too hard when we're dealing with their sexual betrayal.
When we were driving the 4 hours to my hometown to get married, H unabashedly lusted over my maid of "honor" who he insisted drive up with us, tho I begged we could make the trip separately....they completely ignored me. She was nursing her baby and kept her breasts exposed the whole trip, he kept looking in the RV mirror and going off the road. It was mortifying. (I don't mean to make this about ME, I just relate to the lusting at the most God awful times!)
I must have been insane to go thru with the wedding. Too shocked, and too afraid of his family I guess, to be sane. And yet here we are, K...I have to believe we are "here with them" for a reason?!
It's so hard to separate hating all the heinous things they do, from hating THEM. I've often wished I didn't love him so much, so I didn't have to hate him so much.
I wish I could say more than that I simply understand the strong negative feelings, and I HATE that you have to feel them. I'm sure that the month of no sex could be useful, so that it doesn't turn into months and months of no sex for years...as it has in our case. The abstinence thing is something we didn't pay attention to in the beginning, and I wonder if we should have...
Have you considered further counseling, especially for him? I hope it's ok to admit that I wasn't comfortable with his very brief sessions in the beginning. I know he hasn't made the slips that were in his Plan...but with the lying, and the position of non trust you're in right now, could there be more for him and a professional to explore? Just a thought. I'm thinking I'd be wanting some outside HELP.
I'm just so sorry. I'm asking God to rescue you, from this despair... Love, Who
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 16, 2007 15:52:30 GMT -5
Adding my prayers to the others here. (HUGS)
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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 19, 2007 11:18:10 GMT -5
I am here again and a little saner today. It had seemed wise to me too, but then I get triggered and ruin everything, by demanding to know about fleeting temptation... His responses are spot on...*I* am ruining us by refusing to heal...at this point I feel like it's a concious refusal on my part, as why do I persist in re-visiting the past?!?! and I have NO IDEA how to change. We have not done this, but I've thought about it bringing it up, perhaps we should. Who, I am so sorry to read about what your H to be did on the way to your wedding... It SO nice to have someone who understands. I've put it back on, but if I think about the inscription too much I'm back in tears. I think you're right...he admitted to the lie fairly quickly, so what can I do, ya know? It is probably force of habit more than anything. I spent the weekend crying, on and off. I can be fine, and disolve in tears the next moment. I have made my H cry quite a few times lately, and I feel like a real (expletive) about it. I think he would give all that he has to be able to "take it back", ah, I just want to MOVE ON already. I'm tired of it all, so tired.
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 26, 2007 16:22:52 GMT -5
I SOOO identify with how much it sucks to "make" one's husband cry. We went through several months of that, and it still pops up now and again and I feel like a heel every time, because it's not my intent, ever, to cause my beloved pain. There's some dialogue on this issue on the "Recovering Marriage" circle that might be of interest to you. If I weren't so rushed, I'd go find the threads, but the circle isn't long, and--if it interests you--I think you can find the conversation pretty easily.
How was your Thanksgiving? More importantly, how are YOU? J
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Post by gracebyfaith on Dec 19, 2007 9:59:36 GMT -5
I haven't written here in a while, I really would like some input from other Christian women, and am hesitant to post this on the general boards, so I'm hoping someone will see and be able to offer some help/advice/something.
H and I met with our counsing Pastor and H's accountability partner last night. I am still going to Christian counseling. My H has been clean for almost 6 months.
I have asked H to give me "voluntary updates" as to how he is doing in his recovery. He has tried, I guess, but it's really much less than I need. It seems I get updates when I ask for them, and it's the voluntary part that I believe is going to make me feel safe.
Our session last night went well, I suppose - the gist of it (the way I saw) is that H is "recovered"(that was stated as a past tense, as in DONE) and that I must forgive. We left with recommendations for books on forgiveness, none on recovery. My H read about 10 pages of "Out of the Shadows", stopped doing his Setting Captives Free course (he says he is saving it for "if needed").
H is no longer meeting with his accountability partner on a regular basis...I only found out about this b/c I asked. There will also be no "regularly scheduled" phone calls, it has been left on a "if you need to call me" basis, just as counseling was left. H did not voluntarily offer that they were no longer going to be meeting.
Accountability partner said that he has never seen someone recover as fast as my H has. That should make me feel secure and good, right? It doesn't. H has had periods of "recovery" before, and in fact I was under the impression he was in one, while he was using the whole time.
I desire to be forgiving, and in fact I have been convicted by the Holy Spirit that my fear is a discouragement to my husband.
MY counselor takes the line that H is NOT doing enough to make me feel safe, and that he needs to do more. H's counselor is saying he is recovered.
They are both Christian. Who do I believe? I believe reality lies somewhere in the middle. H's history involves periods of sobriety, followed by use. A counselor likely would have said he was "recovered" then. Yet I also see that he is repentant and is trying harder than ever.
I was struggling against resentment to H's accountability partner last night. I want to remain teachable. I do not want to resent anyone for giving me godly advice, as I know that I AM somewhat struggling with forgiveness. OK, forget the somewhat. Struggling. It's not like I don't want to forgive, but my heart still hurts.
I think I am in a crisis of faith. I do not in my heart believe that we are "done" with this issue, yet there's really nothing I can force H to do or not do anyway, right?
I am so broken, and now feel guilty that I am not being forgiving enough. I believe I take that guilt on myself, I don't think it was given to me by anyone, know what I mean?
H is really really trying, I know he is, I feel he is. H said in session that I will have cause to worry when I see him not reading scripture and not praying. The thing is, I don't SEE him doing those things now. I believe he is, more so than ever in his life, but I thought it was telling that H is assuming I SEE these things. I don't. He reads in the morning before I am up, and the only time we have been praying together is before meals, which we have ALWAYS done, through using and all. Again, I'm sure he is doing them, but he just reiterated, unknowingly, why I still feel unsafe. It was suggested that we pray together every night before bed, and we said we are going to do it. I will NOT suggest it, though, should it not be happening...I expect H to suggest it. That will do wonders for making me feel safer.
I think I may have to stop going to counseling. too much conflicting advice. Maybe I should focus on the forgiveness and trust that the Lord will work as needs to be worked in both of our lives.
This still hurts a lot though.
Ah, there's more, but I think I'm drained for now.
OK, one more thing...I bought "Five Love Languages" and in reading the acknowlegements I read this "thank you to my wife, if more women loved as she did there would be less men looking over the fence" (something very very close to that, I don't have the book here - the only difference may be that he named his wife, but the fence part is accurate - I remember b/c it made me so mad)
So it pissed me off, as subtle blameshifting. And that was just the acknowledgements!!! Am I hyper sensitive b/c of the P in my life, or am I seeing truth and using discernment?!?! When did men stop being men??!
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Post by Mayberry on Dec 19, 2007 10:40:31 GMT -5
Well, I'm glad I'm online to, at least, offer a listening ear. I'm glad your husband's sobriety continues. I understand this "voluntary" part all too well. I do not know if it will be useful to you, but I have really had to struggle that my need for "voluntary" is--for me, not for you, but for ME--tied to some part of my controlling nature. Please ignore this next part if what I've just written does not speak to you in any way. We all react and need differently. [trigger]To know that my husband was in recovery and not "white-knuckling", I needed to see him voluntarily embrace change. He was the one who initiated counseling for himself. He was the one who signed up for Covenant Eyes. He was the one who chose for us to go through a sexual fast to "reset" him. But after that, I went through a period of real struggle (and, to be honest, I still struggle) with needing progress reports. Progress reports from a man who is *just learning* to allow himself to feel. Just learning to talk "deeper than the surface" about ANYTHING that comes with emotion attached (let alone his addiction). And I've got to confess that I got more than 10 ways sideways about his failure to meet my (unstated) need to hear how recovery-land was looking and feeling and "going" for him. How dare that man not read my paranoid, anxious mind? !!!! (If you're reading this, I want you to know that I'm laughing. I hope you are, a little, too.) While there are questions that I'm still scared to ask, I finally excused myself from what was, for me, an unhealthy set of expectation related to my husband's recovery. While his recovery *is* his recovery, having "progress reports" is not only helpful to my sanity but a realistic expectation in a relationship where one partner is dealing with addiction and the other partner has a track-record of being harmed by her husband's addiction. And so (GASP!) I have learned to ask for what I need. Got questions about behavior that reminds me of when he was "using"? Ask them simply. Want to know what recovery work he's doing, or what new things he's learned about himself lately? I ask. I am his companion in recovery. I volunteer things I'm learning about myself; he will sometimes volunteer things himself but mostly, because I've figured out I'm dealing with a fellow just learning to *feel* and *talk*, I invite him to talk (about once a week) and then I just listen. I cannot tell you how much this has helped me feel peaceful.[/trigger] Short form: after much internal battle, I have given myself permission to ask for what I need. Hmmm. Pardon me, but it does *not* sound like your session went well at all. I would react very poorly to the perception that "all is well with my husband" and "I really need to do some work." While both those things might be TRUE in my life, I'd still have problems with the dynamic as you described it. I'm sorry. The fact that your husband was an episodic user would scream throughout my being, as well. I would tend, from what you've written, to be in agreement with your version of reality. Your counselor's version of reality (that H could do more to make you feel safe) seems also right to me. Honey... (hugs). I'm sorry you're struggling with resentment and guilt (and anger?). Again, I understand how my husband's suggesting of this or that would have made me feel safer. And I return to the fact (in my marriage) that it's like expecting someone who's just learning to speak Swahili to suddenly begin speaking fluently about stuff in Swahili. I just don't believe it's natural (or very likely)...not with my husband at least. Well, that's certainly an option. It wouldn't be my first option, but I struggle with making enough room for others (my husband, God, friends) to work their own work, so you should take what I have to say with a grain of salt! I'm sorry. Oh, I'd say, having lived through some massive BS, you might have developed a *slight* sensitivity to BS when you see it! Hypersensitive? Nah. Able to spot it a mile off? Probably! **** I mean no disrespect to your feeling that you *need* your husband to be more voluntarily in sharing his recovery with you. As I read what you wrote (particularly about your husband's reading and prayer life), the questions did come (again and again): 1. Would it help you if you and your husband kept a shared log of the work you are doing, so that you can both know, without a lot of difficult talk or invitations to conflict or blame or feelings of "not enough" the actual, concrete steps you each are taking in your recoveries? 2. Would it help you if you and your husband had a scheduled once-a-week "how are you doing? how am I doing? how are we doing" meeting for marriage and recovery talk? I've found that sometimes, having a "sacred time" of an hour to just pray together and catch each other up on our internal workings without it being "an issue" helps? 3. It's really hard for me to be a companion to someone when I a) don't know what's going on in their struggles and b) I feel like asking what's going on is or could be seen as controlling or intrusive. Does that hold true for you? If it does, can you say that aloud to your husband? Can you say, "I will be a better companion to you if I have regular updates about what's going on for you; is that a gift you will give me?" *** I'm willing to shut up now and listen some more. J
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