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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 17, 2007 14:28:24 GMT -5
Of course! But actually, I believe it was ZT that named it first ;D (I really gotta find that thread...)
I pray that they will realized their need for Jesus (I guess I automatically assume they don't know Him, but who knows?) - Maybe one day, prayer will preceed rage! Actually, I don't always get enraged, my reactions run the gamut depending on the day, or minute. Truth time - sometimes I'll even get a kind of jealousy that I'm not "allowed" to dress that way anymore, you know what I mean? Living a Christian life can be TOUGH when the world is screaming at us from every direction (especially since I'm so new at it), and at times, when I'm lamenting the fact that my H struggles with this, I get a kind of "you can't beat him, join him" type of attitude. I could whore up and look good too, ya know, honey...is what I think in my head! HA!! I don't really want to do that. Just one of the things in my constantly running head.
Example: I was P-O'ED right after d-day (maybe a couple of weeks after), I had bought a cute halter top for like $2 on a sale rack, even though I was pretty sure I would never wear it out in public, b/c of modesty concerns. (in my prior life, I would have worn it without a second thought, it's not a *really bad* top, you know?) I tried it on for H and asked him what he thought (I guess I was looking for a "wow, you look hot, honey" comment, I needed validation at that point that my H thought *I* was hot too!!!) Well, I got "I don't know how I would feel about you wearing that out in public", and a little bit about how guys could be looking at me, etc...OOOHHH was I madder than a wet hen. Here he is, using P, etc...etc....but you want to make sure NO ONE ELSE LOOKS AT ME?
I don't even know what I'm babbling about. More like stream of conciousness stuff I'm doing here, or something like that.
Oh Sunshine, I sure do agree with you on that one!!!
You know, I can totally see that about you! Some of your ren-faire pics made me see that kind of "performer" in you, lady! I did theatre in high school, LOVED IT and would love to do again. It's funny that you wrote about re-thinking your wardrobe, b/c in looking at some of your pics, I was thinking that I LOVE your clothes, and sense of style.
I don't want to feel like I have to "compete" with strangers anymore, I've had that tendency my whole life, so it can't even be blamed on H's PA. It's my stuff and not his doing, although maybe in part came about b/c even though I was an only child, mom compared me to her friends' kids, and all the "good stuff" they were doing. I really don't know WHY I am this way?!?!?! I am just now begining to learn how to be enough as I am, although the PA does throw a *little* wrench in that process.
I'm very serious, but I don't know exactly how they work?! I will read at any opportunity, at the drop of a hat, so we should figure something out!
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 17, 2007 16:51:13 GMT -5
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 18, 2007 6:38:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the kind words, GracebyFaith. My "wardrobe" as reflected in those pics is my "new and non-costumed" wardrobe. My other wardrobe is about to get a deep cleaning, I suspect. The further along this path I go with Mr. Mayberry, the less I think I'll ever use the better (or is that the worst???) part of it again.
Your comments on the halter top got me going. I've been rather boggled by my few attempts to "dress up" the few times Mr. Mayberry and I have "hit the town." While he doesn't say anything, there's something in the way that he LOOKS at me (or doesn't look at me) that made me feel (for the first time) incredibly INSECURE in some of my more costume-y clothes. This was "before D-Day"....
I suspect it's the "modest life" for me, hereafter. Not QUITE sure how I feel about that yet, but I appreciate you re-prompting the thoughts in me with your "WaWa" post.
Hugs. J
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 26, 2007 5:37:18 GMT -5
Just stopping in today to wish you a happy Friday and to let you know I'm thinking about you!
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 29, 2007 12:40:00 GMT -5
Thank you for stopping in Mayberry The Friday was good, the weekend, eh. [trigger]H is still experiencing the inability to achieve, or sustain, an erection[/trigger] Not all the time, maybe 50% of the time. In addition to being hurt, and scared, and feeling unattractive, and all that good stuff, I'm po'ed. Yes, this afternoon I am ticked. I'm po'ed that he "has no idea what's going on". "no idea why this is happening", and that his method of handling the situation is to curl up under the covers and go to sleep. How different is that from using P to escape the hard stuff of life? Not very different. I'm not mad about the inability to sustain so much as I am at the reaction to it. His answer is "I feel horrible" My reply was: There are many reasons one could feel "horrible" - 1. you have the flu 2. you just accidently ran over someone with your car 3. you're embarassed that you are having trouble with the "up" 4. you feel bad for me.... You see what I'm saying? I need something more than "I feel horrible" That tells me nothing that I can use. As far as I know, you feel horrible that you're not 'allowed' to P anymore! I know he's working on it, on being more in touch with his emotions, etc...I'm just mad right now. How difficult is it to identify SOMETHING that you feel horrible about? Even if it's a whole mish-mash of stuff...can't you identify something? One part of it? I don't want to initite sex at all anymore. But if I do that, then I dread that I will feel like P everytime that he initiates, if he's the only one who does. See what I mean? I fear that if H doesn't come up with some sort of plan, if he doesn't voluntarily offer potential solutions for SOMETHING...then I'm just gonna shut down. I hate the perceived rejection of the sex difficulties, and if he don't have any suggestions then why should I try. I'm in a bad place with it today. Oh yea, one more thing... [trigger] my h has one of those rough patches on himself. I was already questioning where it came from, and now I can't get the idea that he's been MB out of my head - how can I, coupled with the erection stuff?[/trigger] I asked if his problems were P related, maybe I should just ask, flat out and out of the blue, "hey, when was the last time you MB?"
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 29, 2007 16:20:41 GMT -5
I'm po'ed that he "has no idea what's going on". "no idea why this is happening", and that his method of handling the situation is to curl up under the covers and go to sleep. That is Mr. LU's method, too. Like you, it really does tick me off. It's the same thing I feel about his ability to be honest about his porning. Like I'm not important enough to him for him to spend 3 minutes and think through something and spew it out gracefully or gracelessly - but to at least give me some information that I can't learn from a book. But when I was in counseling, she kept reminding me that his inability to think more then surface thoughts and speak about them is NOT about me. That he hasn't been a self-reflective thinker and he is very clueless and stubborn about becoming one - life has worked great for him for over 5 decades without having to think deep or talk about personal stuff - why am *I* defective and expecting HIM to do that hard work? Whoami often comforts me when she discusses the shallowness of their communication - I sit here and nod my head and feel so much acceptance because I'm not the lone stranger wading through the shallows when I want to be swimming in the depth of deep boyancy of communication with my mate. Where we've only been married 9 years, it amazes me how he switched from a deep thinker/talker to surface overnight. It puzzles, hurts and frustrates me - because I KNOW he is capable - or can fake it pretty good. I understand. I told Mr. LU he had to make attempts to romance me and not just grab at me like an unsophisticated 13 year old in the back seat of a car. He's not willing to do that and I'm no longer willing to be a porn girl to tittalate and service him. I do not approve of the sexlessness of our marriage; but I don't see a way out - one hand can't clap alone and he certainly isn't willing to make an effort at this time. He'll try what he's always tried and if that no longer works - well, tough - I shouldn't have changed so it's MY fault we're sexless. (At least that's MY interpretation). Is that a bad thing? I've tried that and my husband puts on his best Boy Scout honest face, looks me straight in the eyes and swears he's never done that and he's hurt that I'd even suggest it. After one lecture from me, he now at least flushes his used kleenex so I don't have to dig them out from under the bed and trash them - so by his standards of truth - if I don't see the used kleenex, then he hasn't been doing it. Yeah, right. I don't believe that. Obviously, Mr. LU hasn't done much to rediscover trust. My apologies for venting on your thread... but things seem so parallel about this. I know there's been several threads on the General Forum about ED - but I can't seem to find them with the search function. It's not uncommon for their guilt, shame, humiliation for having been SA to stop them from achieving an erection. Even viagara won't help my husband - yet the equipment functions 100% when he's asleep - at least until he wakes up and sees me... which I've had to learn is NOT about me, either. Aurgh. Hugz and Prayers, LookingUp
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Post by whoami on Oct 30, 2007 10:31:45 GMT -5
Grace (and LU too) I see ABSOLUTELY what you mean, and I'm going thru it too. (Small consolation, I know)
We need so much more than "I feel horrible," (or in my H's case..."well, I was thinking about it just the other day.") And so SO often, when I want communication, and some enlightenment about the problem from him, he will say "well let's go to the bedroom and cuddle."
JEEZ! I'm just sure we're in the mood for "cuddling" when we're dying to communicate, to address the problem and find some solutions. It's a real turn on, eh?
I don't mean to be mean. I know there is illness and pain behind it all and it is a very sad fact that porn and sex addiction can tend to turn men into sad sad lovers. It's just so frustrating to not know how to "fix it." It's so maddening that they don't know how to talk about it.
And not fair that we end up blaming ourselves and our level of "attractiveness" (I will say, after so many years, I'm getting better at this one. It's NOT us.)
Sigh. I'm sorry for venting too, Grace. I just HEAR YOU! Love and Prayers continue!
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 30, 2007 11:41:44 GMT -5
Ladies, you are SO awesome. I've been (and am continuing to be, at the moment) very self-centered - I'm sorry for that. I'm working on a letter to H right now, writing out much of what's been on my mind. Just having you here to commiserate with, to know that we ALL struggle this way, is giving me the determination to continue, despite the awkardness. Thank you so much.
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 30, 2007 12:18:31 GMT -5
Ladies, here is my letter to H. Any input would be welcome...no input would be cool too! I hope everyone is having a good day.
Hi honey,
I’m writing this after some internal struggle with whether I should or not…I’m trying my best to write in a spirit of love. (please forgive the impersonality of the typing, it’s easier for me to do this way.) We’ve discussed the benefits of journaling in order to solidify what I ‘really’ believe in my own mind – this letter is for the same purpose.
Well, obviously I’m having some trouble dealing with our past and present difficulties, as I know you are as well. I realize that my communication style of ‘talking it all out’ must leave you with some uncertainty as to what I DO need in order to heal, since I blather all over the place. I love you, and love my time with you, but still feel like there’s the huge elephant sitting in the middle of the room. (in the sense that I don’t think I’ve been clear enough about my boundaries, or bottom line, or whatever I should call it/them.)
You told me your plan was no P, no MB. Have you MB? I’m sorry to say, but I’m not fully convinced that you have not. I hate that I even care, because under different circumstances I would NEVER ask such a question. I care because I do believe that MB will eventually lead you back to P. This is so completely awkward, honey. I fear that the reason you have not done the Setting Captives Free course in awhile is because you cannot answer the question “have you been free from self-gratification since the last lesson” with a “no”. Am I way off-base here, or am I dead on? So, that’s my first question. I know that there is no sure way I can “find out” in the same way I can find P, so I hope that your plan is to still consider MB a “slip” of sorts and tell me about it. Is that your plan? I fear that my anger may have left you in a position of having to hide MB, or even P for that matter, out of fear of the consequences. I want to reiterate that I’m NOT going to leave, or make you leave, if you should happen to ‘slip’ (oh how I hate that word, but yes, I do understand it happens – it happened to me, too) but I would be devastated if you don’t tell me – and at this point that includes MB even without P.
I am very conflicted about our problems in the bedroom. I do not care so much about the fact that we are having them, but I care very much about your reaction. I know I mentioned this the other day, but when I see you burrow under the covers and go to sleep, I can’t help but think that your coping skills haven’t changed much. I know it’s uncomfortable. I know it’s awkward and embarrassing and it sucks and all that. But burrowing isn’t all that different than turning to P to make the ‘bad stuff’ go away. I also know that you aren’t very introspective – but honey, I need some introspection. I am trying to walk a tightrope between recognizing that that’s who you are, and that it’s obviously not comfortable or natural for you – and my need for you to give me some answers. Or some suggestions as to what we should do about our bedroom stuff. I don’t believe that long term intensive counseling is necessary for you to get this sin out of your life for good (as you know), but I DO believe that some deeper recognition of some why’s and how’s of why “B is B” is necessary. I hope that makes SOME sort of sense, it’s very difficult to write this out intelligibly.
OK, maybe if I give you a “template” of sorts, it’ll help…J… here goes. The other night, you said, “I feel horrible”. I’m sure there are quite a few reasons you feel horrible, that it’s a whole combination of stuff. Could you perhaps think about, and name, 3 aspects involved with feeling horrible? Like, I feel horrible because of A, B & C? I’ll give you 3 of the reasons that the situation makes me feel horrible…they’re harsh, but hopefully will serve as an example of what I’m talking about. Without input from you, my mind runs to the worst case scenario, which is why I need this from you. So here are 3 of mine…. A. I feel horrible b/c I’m afraid my H has been MB, and that is why the difficulty. B. I feel horrible that I’m sure he never had this problem with his P women. C. I feel horrible that B has to deal with this fallout from sin in his life, and saddened that we are fallen people in a fallen world.
I have no idea what we should do as regards sex, but I’m at the point where I need you to come up with “the plan”. As you can see, sleeping to deal (or to not deal) upsets me. Feeling like I have to come up with all the solutions also upsets me. Please put some thought into this…I believe you know what I mean by a plan. As I mentioned the other day, maybe “the plan” can include something like just telling me when it’s not going to work? That’s the last suggestion I’m going to make, because I really will be blessed if you can put some thought and effort into it, and I don’t believe I do you any favors by saying “honey, come up with something” and then coming up with it FOR you! J One more thing here…it’s a possibility that if you are the only one who ever initiates, that I will end up feeling like I’m only there to get you off when you’re horny, that I’m essentially P.
I feel like despite my stated intent to not blather, I’m blathering….please allow me to spend just a moment clarifying what I need to know…
1. Have you MB? Please be honest… I will be fine with any answer to this question given in honesty, and will from this point forward believe that answer…God will help me with that. 2. What is your plan of action should you MB? (all steps in that plan.) 3. What is your plan of action should you be tempted to P? Am I included in that plan? (again, all steps) 4. What is your plan of action should you actually P?
I suppose those are my questions for now. Please take some time in prayer with these, as well as to your ideas as to how we should proceed with our sexual relationship. I know I’m throwing a lot at you here…would a week be enough time for you to solidify some things in your own mind, pray, reflect, and get back to me on these? If you could let me know that you’ll be working on this, it would be a LOT off my mind.
I love you so much. Thank you for being willing to work on yourself, honey, for us and for the Lord.
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 30, 2007 13:03:47 GMT -5
GracebyFaith: I think this is a beautiful, loving and honest letter. I was moved by it, deeply moved by it. I hope your husband is too. There were two "random" thoughts I had about what might be "missing". Now, I don't know if these things are "missing" for you...or whether I am inserting my own concerns into YOUR life! So take what is useful and leave the rest, eh? 1. It struck me that some recognition of that fact that the two of you are both new to talking about this delicate, sensitive area in your lives, this wounded area, might be helpful. It might go into the "plan" about sex area if you're moved to add something.... "I am very conflicted about our problems in the bedroom. I do not care so much about the fact that we are having them, but I care very much about your reaction and what you're feeling. I know I mentioned this the other day, but when I see you burrow under the covers and go to sleep, I can’t help but think that we've both got a long way to go in learning how to talk to each other lovingly and clearly about ALL areas of our lives. I know it’s uncomfortable. I know it’s awkward and embarrassing and it sucks and all that. But burrowing isn’t all that different than turning to P to make the ‘bad stuff’ go away. I also know that you aren’t very introspective – but honey, I need some introspection. I am trying to walk a tightrope between recognizing that that’s who you are, and that it’s obviously not comfortable or natural for you – and my need for you to give me some answers. Or some suggestions as to what we should do about our bedroom stuff. I don’t believe that long term intensive counseling is necessary for you to get this sin out of your life for good (as you know), but I DO believe that some deeper recognition of some why’s and how’s of why “B is B” is necessary. It might helpful for you to know that I don't feel like I've got all the answers. This is new territory for me too. I want to share what I'm feeling with you; I worry that what I say will hurt you or hurt us. Knowing that you're willing to speak honestly about what you're feeling in this area encourages me to speak honestly about what I'm feeling. I trust you to be loving and gentle with me; it's what I want to be with you, even when I'm hurt or confused. I believe that, together, we can learn how to talk about anything, and to love each other through any difficult moment. As long as we're both willing to talk and to listen to each other." 2. In your letter, you ask him to come up with a "plan" about your sexual lives. In your summary or clarification, you do not have this on your list (you just have the questions). I wonder if this paragraph is necessary: and, if it is necessary, if you should then include it in your clarification/list below this paragraph?
Those are my "deep thoughts" on the subject! It really is an amazing and loving letter. Wow! J
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 30, 2007 13:06:56 GMT -5
J, you're fantastic!!! Thank you for your input, it is just what I needed...I'll talk to you very soon, I hope. Again, I'm swamped Much love, K
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 30, 2007 13:27:48 GMT -5
K--glad what I wrote was helpful to you. Love and prayers, J
PS: Someone on the board, whose permission I don't have to share this idea!!!!, wrote to me recently in private message about how she and her husband pray together before being sexual. Perhaps she will write to you directly in PM or here, if she's comfortable sharing more (hint hint). It seemed like the most sensible and helpful of ideas for a husband and wife who share a relatively equal comfort with their faith. I don't think I violate her by referring to the idea in the "generic" here on your journal. I was just pondering what you'd written about the "plan." As you know, I'm struggling with something similar. I'm not sure any "plan" of mine (or his) will help us reconnect, per se. What I *do* believe is that loving communication (and not dodging the subject) is ABSOLUTELY the best thing we can do to bring both of us closer to wholeness. I also believe that asking for Divine inspiration, as I suspect both Mr. M & I are *plan-less* as well as *clueless*, is entirely appropriate. Off with me. J
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 30, 2007 13:38:48 GMT -5
Like Jinn said, the letter left a couple blank spots for me that I'd want to say:
(1) You say, " I care because I do believe that MB will eventually lead you back to P. " One of my main reasons that I do not mb or that I don't want my husband to is because *I* can't do it without sexual fantasy - even if it's fantasy of my husband. Thus, it's objectifying somebody and putting me in a "superior" position - with the authority to use others without their will. For me, mb keeps the objectification of others firmly routed in the mind - which then makes returning to porn or pornish photos easier.
(2) My husband would shut down if I gave him that much stuff to think through. Golly gee, he shuts down with one personal question. I do have a bit better luck if I focus on only one thing at a time and nibble at it until he breaks down some of his defenses. You know your husband best - but possibly doing one item on your list every other week might help you get the results you want and deserve.
I'm also learning FOR ME, that I need to come up with a consequence if he doesn't respond by the date he gives. My hubbie is very much an "ignore it and it will go away" or "ignore it and she'll have to figure out how to adjust by herself."
Take what you want and ignore the rest!
LookingUp
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 31, 2007 10:32:33 GMT -5
LU and Mayberry, I took your suggestions ( Mayberry, I basically cut and pasted most of yours) and gave H the letter last night.
He did answer that he has been MB and P free since his original clean date, so I will choose to accept that as the truth, with God's help. Part of my bad day yesterday was from finding some questionable searches that he had done a couple of months ago. I can see what he has searched for on any computer, given certain circumstances - I just discovered this yesterday. He has searched, since he's been P free, for 1. 2 girls we went to HS with 2. A woman featured on a documentary we watched together...the documentary (totally innocent in and of itself) was triggering at the time as the woman was attractive, and in swim gear.
I don't want H to know that I can see some of what he is doing online this way, although he may already know. PA's do get good at learning all the ins and outs of how ALL their online history can be tracked. I want to KNOW if there are any borderline behaviors that I should be aware of, and I feel this is a way I can...and yet, I think I am lying by not disclosing the searches I found.
If H were not a PA, I would never question the fact that he googled people we went to school with - I have done the same on occasion, usually out of boredom. There could be a completely innocent reason for all 3 searches, and yet there could be a completely crappy reason for the searches.
At this point I am choosing, to the best of my ability, to believe that they were innocent. I will probably be checking surreptiously in the future. I'm am conflicted about not telling H that "hey, I can do this, you know", and my feeling that I need something like this to make me feel just a bit safer.
He told me he would get back to me in a week with the answers to the questions in my letter...the time frame I gave. I offered more time, and his reply was "no, becuase I'm not good at this 'thinking about stuff', and if I have more time I will procrastinate because I don't like doing it." Good answer, honey. I think I should come up with a consequence if he doesn't do it, I am also unsure what that should be. I didn't mention that there would be a consequence to H - and in a way I am glad, at least now I'll know that he didn't do it "just" to avoid a consequence, but rather b/c I stressed that I need it for my mental health.
I have a counseling appt tonight, I am still unsure if it is helping or not...
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 31, 2007 11:08:58 GMT -5
Good. Good that you gave the letter; good that he gave you (what we all will hope and pray) is a truthful answer. I have had some recent struggles wrapping my mind around "borderline" activity. I've found myself detaching (I think that's the right word)...for the most part. I suspect that Mr. M and I think differently about his behavior; I know for a fact that he does not make the same (intuitive) leaps that I do about his behavior. When I have gotten very anxious (for us, it was about Mr. M's tendency to spend hours "collecting" pictures of stuff he's interested in), I have written here to get the edge of my anxiety off and then spoken simply to Mr. M about it. He heard me. Anyway, this is round-about way of saying that (in his mind) his behavior may be just fine. Do you all have Covenant Eyes installed? Several times, having that has helped me to voice concerns about trends I'm seeing in Mr. M's computer usage...I'm his "accountability partner" in that. Well, it certainly does make it awkward to bring it up, doesn't it? Perhaps you-all can "start clean" with a mutually-known software. I know Mr. M's willingness to both have the CE software and then talk about things when they came up (the borderline things) has been very helpful for me and, I suspect, for him. Yep. Both things are possible. I tend to give myself the benefit of the doubt--that I'm looking up old friends out of curiosity or a flash of remembering them....that I'm looking up an author because I want to know more about them. It's a little difficult to extend that grace to my husband, because I know about "borderline" stuff, but I am trying. I understand. Good answer indeed. I hope it's sooner, rather than later. I really do. It is my fervent hope that you won't need a consequence. Tell me more about this when you have a minute? I'm personally very divided about counseling: I've seen it work wonders; I've seen it hurt folks. What's going on with your counseling experience that makes you wonder if it's helping or not? You're in my thoughts. J
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