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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 1, 2007 9:19:15 GMT -5
Wow, I think this says it all...and is one of my biggest fears...
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Post by whoami on Nov 1, 2007 9:28:13 GMT -5
Well, don't include me with "ya'll." I'm sharing your response envy! I thought your letter to H was excellent. I'm impressed that you came right out and asked the difficult questions. And it lifted my heart that he told you he didn't want to extend the time frame, that it's hard for him to talk about this stuff....that seems refreshingly honest, and I pray it is so (and not some sort of brilliant manipulation), tho to me it seems positive. At this point in time, I find myself wondering what's with the time frames, anyway? Why does it take a week? Is it a matter of getting up their nerve, or what? Sorting out their thoughts? Praying on it? On the other hand, my H's answers are all to quick, and that probably predisposes him to defensiveness. Lightbulb moment for me perhaps. Gosh, I so feel for your struggle concerning checking up on him, but not letting him know. Most of me thinks this is ok, fair and proper to do (after all, they have this sick addiction, and is it any less prudent than looking for the signs that the alcoholic/drug addict has slipped?) But on the other hand, I know I couldn't do it. H has called me "honest to a fault," and it's always been true that I can't keep anything from him, as much as I've wanted to. Being around him has always been like a shot of truth serum coursing thru my veins. (This WAS when I was drinking, tho...maybe I didn't have the self control to keep my mouth shut. It might be different today, if the need arises)... I'm taking a round about way of saying, I think that not sharing the checking up would be a good thing, if you can do it. As for not having a consequence, and enforcing a boundary, I'm glad you didn't tell him there would be a consequence, so you can think more about what it would be. As Mayberry said, I TRULY hope you won't need to have a consequence. But if so, could it be as simple as sleeping in different rooms? Could it be that period of abstinence you've wondered about in the past? (This is providing that action wouldn't be too negatively reinforcing for YOU.) I guess that's the tough thing about boundaries...they are all about tough love and that is often so very difficult for us. And I guess I'm putting the cart in front of the horse Just know the prayers continue from this end. And my gut is telling me that you are in a positve phase of healing. It's a rocky, up and down road, but I'm inspired by the work you're doing GBF! Much love, Who
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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 1, 2007 9:42:50 GMT -5
Lately I've been angry with not only my H's p use, but p use in men in general, and in the church specifically. I am doctrinally confused, I think. AND hard hearted. I have a hard time accepting the Christian testimony of anyone who has been engaged in P sin for extended periods of time. Or any habitual sin, for that matter, but my attention is focused on the P. Am I just this angry about P specifically because I have been affected by it, and because it's hit me in my own place of pride? Probably. I would doubt my salvation if I were honestly praying for freedom for something and never getting it...actually I would doubt the existence of God at all. I don't believe I am capable of living that type of double life for long, so I don't understand how people do. Can these men desire TRUE freedom from P, and yet not get it? We are told that whatever we ask for that is in line with God's will, we will receive - I know that using pornography is NOT in line with God's will, so when the freedom doesn't come, can the desire truly be there? I think it is doublemindedness. I don't believe a lot of these guys really want to be free. I CAN'T and I hate that!!!! It makes me bitter. I believe even when they DO want freedom, it's for the wrong reasons. When I fall, I fall hard - I'm not capable of keeping up the facade of "good christian" - perhaps the addict part of me is jealous that people can? That my H can hide his drug prefernce for so long, and I will basically be none the wiser, and that I cannot hide mine at all? I know we all sin...are there degrees of sin in God's eyes? Is P use really any worse than my hardheartedness and bitterness? Am I only to forgive those who are repentant? Why do I even feel like it's my job to forgive those who are not personally associated with me? Isn't that God's job? If someone asks for forgiveness from me, but does not repent, are we still required to forgive? How about if they don't even ask for forgiveness? Is my anger at church leaders using P "righteous anger", or is it judgemental bitter anger? What is the definition of Christianity? I know believing that Christ died for your sins must be included, but doesn't it also include "following after Christ"? Can one be saved, yet NOT be a Christian? When does habitual sin become NOT following after Christ anymore? Yet God says he will pick us up as many times as we fall. Can asking for God's forgiveness, without true repentance, just be the "easy way out"? Where does Paul say (Romans?) Does knowing that we have God's forgiveness mean that we should KEEP ON sinning? Of course not! I have so many questions like this...I am so confused. Why am I not more sympathetic, given my history with sin and God's TREMENDOUS mercy and love? Am I a Pharisee? Are habitual P users, or abusers, or alcholics, or liars, who are active in the Church, Pharisees? Jesus was tough on the Pharisees...all I can think of scripturally when I think of Jesus' replies to the Pharisees was "liar" and "hypocrite". Whew. So much to ponder. Sermon this Sunday was on "worship often brings repentance" - I should take some time and just focus on the attributes of God, in order to put myself back in my rightful place.
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 2, 2007 6:23:47 GMT -5
Good morning, GracebyFaith. Wow! I read your post yesterday and my main thought was, "Great questions, and I'm too zonked to even TRY to give my two cents." Today, I'll content myself with "Great questions! I look forward to hearing your exploration of these...The answers you find." You ask: "I know we all sin...are there degrees of sin in God's eyes?" Speaking for myself, I think not. Sure, there's sin that offends ME more than other sins. But when I get real with myself, my "LITTLE" sins (as I think others might see them, or am tempted to see them myself) are just as "against God's good order" as the "BIG" sins I haven't managed to commit. That's my "deep thought" for the morning. I am here, wishing you a good Friday. My love and my prayers are with you. J
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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 2, 2007 9:40:57 GMT -5
We do have Covenant Eyes on the computer. We've also set the boundary that H will not go on the computer at all when I'm not home, which he has not. Work computer is tightly monitored, I know he would never surf actual p there, and they have recently blocked video sites like youtube WOOHOO!!!!!!! I have wished before that I had installed covert monitoring instead of CE on our home computer, so I can see if this is "real recovery", or just "I'm being watched" recovery. No laptops. EVER. H had bought one just for p in the past...and threw it away in one of many attempts to quit.
Ah, the counseling. Well, it is a Christian counseling center, which is good. My counselor and I have been butting heads about what it is that H needs to do to stay free of this (expletive)e for good, and what my role as his wife is. Now, I have a tendency to maybe infer things out of generalized statements, so I'll make the allowance that I might have been seeing something in my counselor's demeanor that was not entirely there. But it didn't feel that way. It's been like this...she's really been PUSHING counseling for H...I'm not entirely sure that he needs counseling....he went, the counselor helped him put into place the tools he would need to stay away from P, and they had a kind of open "if you need me again, call me" end of counseling.
She just keeps telling me "when you have cancer, you go see a specialist"...H is in the word daily, has an accountability partner, has installed CE, has made advances in discussion with me, has joined a small group study, etc... etc...
When I say something like "it's not for me to say what H needs to recover, it's different for everyone", she'll reply with "I don't think you understand that being married, you are one...are you understanding your role as wife?" Yes, I understand my role as wife. To help him grow in the image of Christ - I'm not even sure that his going to couseling would help him OR me...I want to move onto fixing ME, independent of what H does or does not do. I don't think she was getting that.
We "had it out" a bit last session, I was getting all anxious feeling like H HAS to go to counseling, or he WILL P again...especially since I don't believe it to be the case. We agreed to shelve it, and I feel much better.
I don't think I explained that all that well...but it was very tense...2 sessions of round and round about counseling...I know she's a counselor, but geez.
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 2, 2007 9:49:18 GMT -5
Am I just this angry about P specifically because I have been affected by it, and because it's hit me in my own place of pride? Probably. Great question. Do I desire true freedom from the sin of gluttony? Yes. Do I get it? Yes, but not on a consistent basis - I'm growing into more and more holiness in that area. I often compare it to Paul's thorn - gluttony keeps me humble and totally dependent on God. Did God cause it? No. Does God use it? Yes. When I went back and reread the 7 deadly sins - gluttony was mentioned before lust! Ouch - that hurt (not sure if they're in rank order or not). My inner addict has struggled with that, too. If I let my addict out of the cage, I'd be back in 24W clothes in no time and our grocery bill would skyrocket - but Mr. LU can hide his addiction easily. Maybe that's a blessing - then my sin of pride (others easily finding out) can take over and help control my sin of gluttony? I don't think so God sees sin in degrees - in my understanding, he sees all sin as a wedge that is driven between us and Him - and reminds him of the nails that were driven into his Son's hands and feet. I don't think my human brain can fathom how terrible any sin makes him feel. I agree with Jinn, some sins have bigger earthly consequences to make restitution to society... thus a parking violation's consequences aren't as big as an axe murder's - yet possibly the "pride" issues that caused both would be similar. Great questions. I'm often led to the Lord's prayer (Matthew 6) and the Story of the Unforgiven Debtor (Matthew 18). and Mark 11:25 and Luke 17:3-5. I've wrestled with this. Mr. LU says he's a Christian because he's accepted Christ as his Savior. I believe he has done that. But, in my opinion - which is worth zilch in the scheme of eternity when God's judgment falls, I don't know if Mr. LU made Christ the Lord of his life or if he's still sitting on his own throne following his own rules and opinions on life. I asked Mr. LU and he quoted John 3:15; I quoted back Matthew 7:21. Hummm.. I was able to broach this question and made a little dialog with Mr. LU. I said my mother is old (91) and has been saved for 79 years and during that time she's never read her Bible completely through because she said God wants to keep most parts of it secret from believers (her doctrine). I asked if he thought she would go to heaven if she hadn't even read God's book to determine what he's like and what he expects from her? How can we obey someone that we haven't even read their book to see what he expects for obedience? We can obey our conscious or higher path somewhat for morality - but is high morality all God expects? (Obviously, you're not the only one who has questions; and I think as the end-times draw near God will have us question so our beliefs are concrete so we can stand firm in Him.) I think of the Bible as my guide to life - I search it to find the paths I should take. That may not be true for all Christians though - even though I can't fathom that. Mr. LUs opinion is the Bible probably has dictation (the prophets missed God) translation errors (the translators missed God) and the Vatican has books in their vault they won't release to Protestants (so he figures parts are missing - which maybe say what we do have in wrong). Aurgh. I felt it was a non-answer. I like cut and dried - yes and no answers followed with facts and evidence. No wonder I love Lee Stroebel's books! LOL. I like that verse in the Message "So, since we're out from under the old tyranny, does that mean we can live any old way we want? Since we're free in the freedom of God, can we do anything that comes to mind? Hardly. You know well enough from your own experience that there are some acts of so-called freedom that destroy freedom. Offer yourselves to sin, for instance, and it's your last free act. But offer yourselves to the ways of God and the freedom never quits.(Romans 6:15-16) But I think God realized people we knew (including ourselves) would keep messing up - after all Matthew 18:21-22 says, "Then Peter came to Him and said, 'Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?' Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven." The Pharisees were people who thought they were good Christians - but they were so pridefully legalistic in obeying God that they talked to the son of God face to face, saw his miracles, saw his love to sinners and chose to remain clueless - and to condemn him. *I* think you could be an active addict and be a Pharisee; but you could be an active addict and just be a struggling sheep who loved God, too. (My opinion only.) Here's my favorite book on the attributes of God. www.heavendwellers.com/hdt_knowledge_of_the_holy.htm - I've read it into an audiobook. Let me know if you'd want it as mp3 and I'll make it available through a web-page for you. The wonderful thing about having questions - is God has the answers. May taking your journey to your truth increase and expand your relationship with God. LookingUp
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 2, 2007 9:53:01 GMT -5
The counseling sounds very frustrating. It seems like she may not be too empathetic to your pain or knowing how to help you heal. (((((((((((( gracebyfaith )))))))))))))))
LookingUp
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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 2, 2007 10:10:16 GMT -5
Thank you so much LU - I've too compared some of my sin to Paul's thorn - surprisingly, it's no longer the alcoholism I think of that way (at least not ususally) What a miracle to be *mostly* free of that.
As I was both typing that post, and as I was reading your reply, my heart was telling me "Yes, K, you are being too harsh..." I have a lot of growth to do in this area...I'm hoping forgiveness and my own shadowy approximation of grace will become more natural as the pain of PA fades....it has to fade, right? It's funny, my name includes the word grace, but my attitude often doesn't. Well, not funny, really. I would love the mp3 book, if that wouldn't be too much trouble. I love your book selections, I bought quite a few awhile ago based on your recommendations.
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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 2, 2007 10:12:22 GMT -5
I am running out of time to be here today. My thoughts are with you (I feel such a connection to you through so many things)
Thank you for your lovingkindness...I hope you are well, and I hope to see you soon. PS Your dog is adorable, I love her.
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 2, 2007 10:45:05 GMT -5
I sent you a pm with the URL.
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 2, 2007 15:08:11 GMT -5
Just to correct LU's typo...the Pharisees were Jews, not Christians. I think her fingers were flying! Interesting conversation here....I'd post more (than my school marm-ish correction) but I've got to run. J
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 2, 2007 17:51:30 GMT -5
Just to correct LU's typo...the Pharisees were Jews, not Christians. I think her fingers were flying! Interesting conversation here....I'd post more (than my school marm-ish correction) but I've got to run. J Good catch, Mayberry. You're 100% correct. I think it was more of a brain burp then it was a finger mistake.
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AmazingGrace
Full Member
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like ME.
Posts: 130
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Post by AmazingGrace on Nov 4, 2007 16:56:12 GMT -5
Gracebyfaith-- The last couple pages were an amazing conversation to read. I'm attempting to post in everyone in the circle's journal today, and I'm at the tail end of my attention-paying and cohesive-thought-writing rope. Sorry to have left you for last. About sin and your question--(paraphrased here)--"If a person is a Christian and continues in habitual sin, can they still be a Christian?" Praise the Lord, the answer to that is yes. However (yes, a caveat) a person in a true growing and alive relationship with Christ, who invites the Holy Spirit in on a daily basis, cannot help but be changed. For that reason, I am grateful for my husband's PA and for the last awful, stressful, emotional six months. I'm grateful that he was broken and that the Lord can work on him because of it. I'm grateful that I was broken and that the Lord has been working with me through this painful time. Last night I was cleaning my house (at 10:40 pm!!!) and had on my Ipod so I could listen to music to motivate myself. I was stopped in my tracks by this song--I've been so distracted and busy lately that the first words caught me, and then all I could do was stand in my dark bathroom (I'd just turned off the light) and praise the Lord as I listened. Building 429's You Carried Me I’ve been so busy, I missed the reasons I missed Your love, and I nearly missed it all Still You’ve loved me, and You’ve healed me You’ve given all and it brought me to Your cross I stand only because You’ve given me grace to walk Only because You carried me You carried me You carried me through it all And I believe Yes I believe You’ll carry me all the way home Cause mercy covers all I know the scripture, I’ve known the songs I sang the words from my hollowed heart But You’ve spoken softly through the storm I’ve heard Your voice and I’ve felt the calm I stand only because You’ve given me faith to walk You carried me You carried me You carried me through it all And I believe Yes I believe You’ll carry me all the way home Cause mercy covers all I know that you love me I’ll never doubt it I can’t live without it Your mercy has found me I am astounded, I can’t live without it You carried me You carried me And I believe Yes I believe You’ll carry me all the way home Cause mercy covers all Mercy covers all And I believe And I believe I believe Anyways, I hope that you'll have courage to face your walk with God and not worry about the walks of others. I heard a speaker once say that God's plan for us is not so much about what happens to us as what happens in and through us. If we were all perfect, we would never feel a need for God. And don't forget that King David, an SA if there ever was one, was called a "man after God's own heart." God may hate the sin, but man, does he ever love the sinner. Grace, again.
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 8, 2007 6:38:38 GMT -5
When I read AmazingGrace's words...I had one of those "I couldn't agree more" moments. It's very odd (intellectually speaking) to find one's self grateful for an experience such as this. That said, I've had this feeling. I have this feeling. I am grateful too. Would I have *preferred* some of my brokenness to come through a different route? I say, "Yes!" but then I ponder some of my other times of brokenness and what I learned in them. I wouldn't have *chosen* any of them. Unfortunately, I am a creature that craves comfort...and, for me, comfort often leads to spiritual complacency or statis...and, for me, spiritual complacency and statis lead to drifting away from the Divine order. Many of these "growth periods" have come with times of intense pain for me and the overwhelming feeling of "I'd prefer not to, thanks anyway, God!" But they have all led to places, relationally and spiritually, where I would not have ventured on my own otherwise. I told this story to Little Berry a couple of months ago, and have pondered it in my heart as it relates to my husband's addiction. Several years ago, a tornado came through and took the roof off my house. I remember how vulnerable and awful I felt. I didn't have the money for a new roof; there were days and days where I was not sure how/if the insurance company would come through with the repair, if I would find a good workman to put a new roof on. I got to look at my old roof lying in the street for about two weeks, and I felt helpless (I couldn't do a thing about moving it!) and shame (that was MY roof blocking traffic flow), and fearful (someone with authority might make me DO something about my roof in the street). The insurance came through, the workman came through, the city showed up and removed my old roof from the street as a public service. Here's where it gets pretty funny, for me. I had been very worried about my roof since the day I moved in. It looked like it needed to be replaced. It was swaybacked and worn. I remember clearly climbing up on the roof as the remnants were stripped away by the crew...and rejoicing because I saw that the hand-adzed beams underneath were, in fact, completely strong and good. In the process of all this destruction, I "got" the reassurance that the bones of my house were sound. I also "got" a brand new roof that I would not have been able to get in the next 5-10 years--no matter how much I "needed it"--with the assistance of the tornadic catastrophe. Now, I have the reassuring knowledge that the basic structure of this house is sound, and that the weak part is gone and replaced with new materials. And, while I related this story to Little Berry when we were talking about changes we hadn't enjoyed in our lives, I was immediately struck by this story's relatedness to how I am feeling about my husband's addiction. Sorry for the long ramble on your journal, GracebyFaith! J
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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 13, 2007 10:04:21 GMT -5
I just realized I haven't updated since I gave H my letter - he did reply to part/most of it, a week to the day after I gave it to him. His plan if he is to relapse with MB or P is to tell me, tell his accountability partner, step up prayer life, start again with the setting captives free course and go back to counseling. If he is tempted to P or MB, the plan is call accountability partner (24/7), pray, and do the course. Telling me if he is tempted was not included in the plan - which I am ok with, with the caveat that if it's becoming frequent temptation, I would like to be told. I believe that hearing about fleeting temptations will only hurt me unnecessarily. No answers yet on what to do about our sex life - we have had sex, and it "worked" the last time, so that's good. Should it keep "working", then I'm not sure we have much to talk about, I believe just having regular relations will heal that part of our relationship more than talking about it will. It will become natural and less scary, again. I don't have his (short answer ) replies with me, but his answers to "name 3 things that make you feel 'horrible'", to the best of my recollection, are... 1. I feel horrible b/c I am not P or MB, and I don't think I can convince you of this when the (ED) happens 2. I feel horrible b/c I am P and MB free and this "shouldn't" be happening 3. I feel horrible b/c I feel that you need intimacy in bed to begin to heal from my P use. I might be a bit off in phrasing, but that's the gist of it. I want my H to be repulsed by the idea of using P again... I pray he gets there. Or is there. I could be aroused by watching P before this all went down, it's not something I had been using but still, I can have that same physical reaction to it that the guys do - do they understand that? Now, I couldn't imagine watching it...ugh. At best, the whole sex industry/sex on TV/sex in the movies is tacky and juvenile. At worst, it's one of Satan's 'best' paths to hell. I'm glad I'm seeing it this way now, even though it's been perhaps the most painful time of my life getting here. Our marriage is moving forward, we've been decorating our apartment, having fun doing that together. I believe my triggers are becoming less frequent, or at least they're not like a tidal or rogue wave when they come, but more like rolling swells...? We rarely watch TV. There have been times that I've wanted to watch something that I wouldn't feel comfortable watching with H, and it makes me mad at times...but then I think, do *I* really need to be watching it either? Most times the answer is no... I don't know, I guess I'm just keeping on with keeping on.
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