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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 1, 2007 20:21:24 GMT -5
Hello LU and Whoami, thank you for taking the time to read and post in my journal. I truly appreciate your feedback...LU, my H is possibly the most empathetic person I know, and can definitely communicate intimately - he does not seem to have lost anything to PA as relates to a healthy relationship with me...I'll let that transition into my reply to you, Whoami (and thank you for being honest, I don't think you are being pessimistic at all) He has an accountability partner from the church (not a PA) who I *assume* he will keep calling, but I don't doubt that will taper off in the future. I'm also looking forward to hearing what my counselor has to say in two weeks (we do have different counselors) about H not going to counseling anymore. I never found lasting freedom for myself in 12 step groups (through God only for me) so it's very difficult for me to insist my H use them, but I am, at the same time, very nervous that H's plan is going to get rough once the pink cloud of initial clean time thins down a little. But then again, if H does keep his time with God as top priority, I believe there is no better recovery plan than that. I believe H is still doing the setting captives free course (in book form), and we are planning to join a marriage small group in our church, so hopefully that will provide some sort of accountability for both of us. Yes, I am nervous. I think I'll always be nervous about H relapsing, which is perhaps the worst part of this whole thing.
I have to catch up on what is going on in your lives, ladies, I have to admit that lately I've been wanting to be away from this board - my H's recovery plan being what it is, I cannot truly relate to SO's whose husbands are in 12 step type recovery, and I'm scared to death everytime I read a new SO story. And my heart still breaks for every woman here - LU you seem so STRONG, and always have time to share positively with everyone, and I know I don't have that strength, and I don't even know what to say to be an encouragement to ANYONE anymore. I just want to take us all and run away or something, and make it so that NONE of us ever have to feel this way again. I'm just at a total loss, I wish I had words to comfort, but I don't know what to say or write, I don't know if I have anything useful to offer, all I can do is offer up my prayers for all of us
Sometimes, I'm a bit ashamed to say, I read here and start believing that God ISN'T enough. I know He is...I don't know what it is about the forum that is bringing that idea out in me - maybe seeing stories from so many Christian men who are PA's. And who relapse. And H's who just won't get it.
I feel like a fraud being a part of any accountability circle - I just don't know what I have to offer.
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 1, 2007 20:56:18 GMT -5
LU you seem so STRONG, and always have time to share positively with everyone, It didn't happen overnight. I've been a member here for over 3 years, been in 12-step for Al-Anon and Overeater's Anonymous, previously on a step-parent support board and was in counseling for 5 years to find my strength is only in God. I'm pretty puny on my own. Be patient with yourself - you're growing and changing in God's timing. Your prayers are the most important foundation for all of our healing - I'm thankful for every one of them. That's why I seldom go to the PA side and am very cautious what I allow my eyes to see - I let the titles be a guide if I do wander on that portion of NP. Sounds like you're having a rough day. Father God, please encourage gracebyfaith today and help her see the unique woman that you've created her to be. Help her find her giftings and her niche in life that you've carved out especially for her. Help her marriage heal and help her heart be restored by Jesus's love. Help her see her identity in Christ; especially where it touches on the betrayal Jesus went through and the betrayal she's going through. In Jesus' Name. Amen.
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Post by whoami on Oct 1, 2007 23:10:19 GMT -5
I don't think a lot of SOs here have H's who are in a 12 step recovery, so there are probably a lot here who can't relate....actually my H doesn't go to meetings anymore and no longer works the steps (and in his SA group, the serious ones got thru step 5 and then just QUIT, from what I observed)! And tho his recovery might have been based on 12 steps in the beginning, he is (and I am) just as vulnerable as any one else. The 12 step plan isn't for everyone, and for sure is not the only or best way. I agree that there is no better recovery plan than making God top priority. That is MY plan (and God's) for me right now...and I'm going to the meetings being new in my sobriety, and trying to be teachable, because I need people in my life who "know" me. Believe me, I could write volumes about how AA isn't right for everyone, and how I know I'm going to have to "bend the rules" a bit. You're not a fraud! I agree with LU, be patient with yourself, and I'll remember that in my prayers for you. And please don't feel like you have to do more on this board that you feel up to....I know how that feels too, and it's...OK!
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 2, 2007 6:22:18 GMT -5
GracebyFaith: Stopped in, read, reflected, am praying for you. Will try to visit again later in the day to "talk." Am thinking of you, don't think you're a fraud at all (AT ALL! NOT EVEN A BIT!). Your post prompted a lot of thoughts, but I need to get to work. Sigh! Much love and all hope your way today, and every day. J
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 2, 2007 11:07:45 GMT -5
Just wanted to give a little testimony of 12-step. God used them mightily in my life. Like whomai said - many of the PAs are not in 12-step and even fewer SOs are in partner-12-steps like S-Anon.
After my divorce and being asked to leave my church, I was hurt; especially since my ex2 committed adultery and was left in his position of authority as head over the helps ministry (ushers, greeters, parking lot attendants, sound, etc). I started attending other churches but was fearful to bond with the people again. Then I married Mr. LU and tried to be an obedient wife by going to bars with him (I'd sustained a brain injury and wasn't thinking too clear).
When his drinking began affecting me, I started counseling and joined Al-Anon. Later I joined OA (Overeater's anonymous). I was blessed when I got my fourth sponsor (took a while to find the right one). She was an awesome Christian who God used to mentor and guide me back into church, into a healthier relationship with God. With the help of the Holy Spirit, she re-lit my desire for a true deep relationship with God. She helped me go from a legalistic do-gooder (a Pharisee?) to a woman hungry for intimacy and freedom with God through Christ. Through the steps, I learned about LookingUp, the child of God, the co-heir with Christ. I learned I wasn't defective but God created me unique - I was a person in process being grown from glory to glory in Christ. I developed a love of the Word and not just a legalistic "gotta read it through every year to achieve God's approval" like I'd had for the 20 years I'd been saved.
I know I wouldn't be where I am today in my walk with God if it had not been for the 12-step program. Yes, I hear horror stories of people who joined 12-step and lost their love of God and replaced it with an anonymous Higher Power; or became robots spouting 12-step literature with (in my opinion) little relationship with themselves, others or God. From many people I've met, many Christians had their walk with God strengthened through the group and have become better servants and stronger lovers of God.
Like you, I didn't find lasting freedom in 12-step; but it was an avenue God used to grow me to the place where I could be mentored until I was ready to find my freedom in Him. I haven't gone to 12-step since we moved and I feel fine with that. Last winter or early spring, I felt God prompt me to stop sitting on the fence - either use the world's way or God's way but pick one. I gave up counseling and trusted The Counselor to guide me. It was another thing I had to grow into as God saw I needed that one on one validation to learn healthy coping skills I didn't learn in my dysfunctional childhood. I could have learned them from the Bible as I see them pointed out quite plainly, especially in the Proverbs; but God chose counseling to get me started and give me accountability to keep growing.
God is sooo very, very good. I'm so thankful that He lead me through 12-step because it brought me into a more vibrant, living, loving relationship with him - and kicked that dead-works legalism out of me.
LookingUp
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 2, 2007 11:57:42 GMT -5
LU, it's awesome that 12 step was used in such a way to bring you closer to the Lord. I defintely believe they serve a tremendous purpose in many lives, and I'm not opposed to them across the board - in fact, I believe that even people who don't struggle with addiction, per se, could often use a good healthy working of the steps! (I also try to apply them in my own life) - oh, and I have the life recovery bible which uses the steps, and I love.
I'm modifying my own post here: I have a lot to reflect on as regards AA and such...the below is not comprehensive, just a little sampling of my thoughts... My own issues with 12 step groups come into play when I go to a meeting, and I hear "if you don't come to meetings more regularly, then you are going to relapse" - it's often not presented as a possibility, but as a certainty. I'm also not comfortable sharing about who has given me freedom in that setting, again, not the nameless "higher power", but instead Jesus. I've gotten the impression in meetings that it's good to have a God, as long as God remains rather vague. I also am not always willing to be a powerful witness for Christ yet, something I'm working on - so some of that uncomfortability comes from my WANTING to witness and share the incredible power of Jesus, but not really knowing how - and also not wanting to "step on toes". It's just awkward for me.
Before I was saved, I attended meetings, and never felt that elusive freedom that was spoken about - I felt that I would never "get it" - and I wouldn't have, had I not been saved.
It's great for me to hear that you felt God's prompting to stop "fence sitting", I sometimes feel that I *should* give 12 step another chance, that I should incorporate it into my Christian walk, but I don't know a way to strike that balance - and I'm not entirely sure that it's necessary. So it's a comfort to hear you say that depending on the Great Counselor is working for you!
But on the flip side, I also agree with Whoami (I think it was you, who? why can't I find it now...) that God can also work very powerfully through others to affect change in our lives. If I do use a 12 step group in the future, it will probably be Celebrate Recovery
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 2, 2007 13:39:09 GMT -5
I also have to admit that I was very fortunate that my Al-Anon group were all Christians and we closed with the Lord's Prayer. The last year I stopped attending so frequently when an athiest joined the group and she wanted us to tone down the Christianity. Like you, it is hard to talk about Christ as the answer at meetings where toes get stepped on and step protocol is ignored.
My O.A. group was online and just for Christians. When an O.A. group was started at the town I lived in before we retired, it had two church-attenders (I was one) who were looking to the God of the Bible; one refused church but was looking to God of the Bible, two who had attended church as children but were looking for a Higher Power that was possibly God but possibly not - even tried each other one week to be HP in their lives; the other two were athiest - one was using the group consciousness as a HP and the other was using his sister. I did not grow much in either sobriety or recovery in that atmosphere.
I've heard a lot of good things about Celebrate Recovery. There are none in this province and my pastor does not embrace that type of thing - he believes in casting out demons of addiction and then setting people on the front row until they "get it" - not much accountability, mentoring or counseling done here. Maybe that's why the attendance numbers continue to dwindle???
I agree with Whoami (or whoever): God has unlimited resources and can work in whatever manner He sees will best change us into what He desires.
Hugz,
LookingUp
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Post by whoami on Oct 2, 2007 16:13:41 GMT -5
Hi Grace! This is Whoami, or Whoever ;D Just wanted to let you know, your issues with the 12 steps are so the same as mine. Right down the line! They were more severe issues some 15 years ago when I didn't drink for 4 years. But they are still obstacles for me, and I need to have boundaries about the whole thing. (What I've learned from dealing with the addiciton here!) I have told that to my priest, who is also AA and took me to my first meeting 3+ weeks ago. I suppose I didn't give him much of a chance to respond...but in finding a sponsor, I know she will have to be aware of certain obstacles I'm preparing to work around. Bottom line is, no one can tell me how to think or how to feel! Or sway me over to some vague idea of a HP. I didn't find that freedom in AA...I know where I found it, or rather, Who it came from when it found me!! So the plan is to take what I need and leave the rest. I do believe (has been proven to me) that God works thru others, so I'm putting myself out there. (I also know there are people in those rooms to teach a lot of lessons about how to deal with difficult, make-ya-so-mad people. I need a lot of teaching when it comes to that) Why did this end up all about me Please excuse me once more! I hope you've been having a peaceful day, and am praying for your H as well. I'm going to try to quit taking up so much space in your journal!....I just find myself relating.
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 3, 2007 7:22:48 GMT -5
perish the thought! I think you posting in my journal kicks butt.
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 3, 2007 14:01:40 GMT -5
I got one!! email from H "I learned today from a sermon that I listened to that God didn’t deliver the Jews out of Egypt just to have them die in the desert. Apparently He does the same for us. Anytime He has shown his faithfulness by helping us, it is to bring us closer to Him – to His/our promised land. I have heard that before, but it stood out for me today".
I'm posting this for myself to REMEMBER his effort in sharing with me next time I want to get super-mad at him over the past. I also want to ask "do you related the above to being delivered from your PA?", but I'm not going to ask that. I don't think it matters in this instance exactly why it stood out for him, I think the sharing is enough.
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 5, 2007 9:13:33 GMT -5
Last night
[trigger] H lost his erection just as we were about to, well, you know. This has happened before, most frequently right after d-day, but a few times since d-day has been further in the past. HUGE trigger for me, as the one time right before discovery he didn't orgasm, I left the house and he ran right to p...in fact, I think that was the p I discovered. The few times this has happened, we've talked about it, and H says he is nervous as he starts thinking about how he hurt me with the p, and can't go on from there. I tend to believe him, but then the niggly little demons in the mind chew around my brain with thoughts like, "BUT, he lost his erection that time even BEFORE you discovered the P, so it can't be entirely that!"[/trigger]
This incidences were what led me to believe that we should not be intimate for a time - when the above happens it's too much of a pain-trigger for me. Right after discovery I went the "if we do it all the time, he won't want to P route" - yuck. But, the no intimacy for a time lasted only about a week, and it was me who initiated.
I hate that our newlywed sex life, which should be joyous and blessed, has this shadow hanging over it.
I don't want to shame H when this happens, but I also want to know WHY...I can't help myself but to ask him why. I don't know if I should be asking him why? What I'm really afraid of is that H had his sexuality (pornosexuality) so amped up by the P, that this is going to now be a recurring problem - but that's a worse case scenario, which I don't really think is it... It also made me afraid that he had MB as he had the house to himself for a bit...I asked "are you sure you have nothing to tell me?", and the answer was no, so I'll choose to trust that for today.
I guess I was just upset at that ending to a day that started out HUGELY negative and PA obsessed, took a big upswing for the positive (bible study) - and then SMACK, there I was, right back to the PA again. I will try to not let the negative overrun all the prior positive.
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 5, 2007 9:23:03 GMT -5
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 5, 2007 10:10:03 GMT -5
We deal with that stuff, too. Here's my comments on asking "Why?"
[trigger]I use to ask why and I'd get vague answers that left me more confused, hurt and distrustful. I think since erections are controlled by the autonomous nervous system (thus, even a paraphlegic can get erections when emotionally stimulated even though they can't feel the physical stimulation) that he probably is clueless. Here's how I justify not having an answer to Why. God knows and He can tell me if I need to know.
As a parallel: there has been a few times I did not make any feminine lubrication; I was desirous for sex, I wanted it, but my body didn't cooperate. I was clueless why. I would presume it may be similar for ED (erectile dysfunction).
Of course, ED for PAs is common. Mr LU has been porn free (to my knowledge) for 9 months and still can not achieve an erection even with manual stimulation. He gets great ones in his sleep - so the equipment works, there's just a mental block. [/trigger]
An abstinence period might be good. I like Hosea 3:3 (NCV): Then I said, " Now you are mine! You will have to remain faithful to me, though it will be a long time before we sleep together."
LookingUp
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 5, 2007 10:28:50 GMT -5
GracebyFaith, after my husband went through about 10 weeks of stone-cold withdrawal (no MB, no sex, no sexual-type behavior), his "function" returned. I believe your husband CAN'T ANSWER you...but I believe YOU may be able to help him understand as time goes by. There is a "brain training" to respond to one's own touch that happened and must be "reset", I belive, and there may be some other issues. Of course, YOUR mileage may vary.
I (also a relative newlywed) had been devastated by our pre-D-Day sexuality and a couple of attempts immediately post D-Day. LookingUp's formulation "My husband broke his weenie with porn" was the SINGLE MOST USEFUL formulation I found to get past the bitterness and resentment.
After the "time away" from MB, sex, etc. he found he was healed (function-wise). In fact, I'm not sure he knew that he was broken until this *wasn't* broken any more. That's just part of our story. I hope it helps. If you want to know more, PM me, please.
Love and prayers your way. J
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Post by whoami on Oct 5, 2007 12:22:28 GMT -5
OOOOOO, can I share too? [trigger]H's difficulty is PE. It came into play just shortly after our marriage (never an issue before). My reactions to it run the gambit... ".He must not want to be in this act with me any longer than he has to. All he's interested in is the big O. He must be super nervous about this - He must just HATE this. Is he afraid to be in here, like I have cooties or something? (Or even) I must be just so HOT he just can't help himself (talk about grandiose thinking!!)"[/trigger] It remains a big issue today which causes a lot of anxiety and avoidence on both our parts. We have talked about it (over the course of 29.9 years.) His pat answer is something like "we don't do it enough, if we did it wouldn't be a problem." Well, duh. We've talked about it in therapy, which usually resulted in smiles and jokes about his getting older. (started when he was all of 26) I've researched it, offered to try different techniques (thinking Dr. Ruth, here) brought home herbal supplements he won't take, yadda yadda yadda. I'm slowly coming to the mind of "his ED, not my problem." It IS a huge pain trigger for us! Like all the rest of it, I keep trying to ask him to find his own initiative in trying to fix it....to care enough to do some thinking about things on his own. I'm willing to go more than half way! but I can't keep trying to fix things by myself, feeling like I'm the only one who cares. Grace, I hope you're having a WAY better day
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