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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 10, 2007 13:23:36 GMT -5
I have to take on my part of the responsibility for the pain I've experienced as a result of PA. H told me about it. Did I think he would never use again? Maybe I did - but I should have known better...I know addicts use. Part of the problem is that I couldn't even really see this as an addiction - an addiction to porn? Are you kidding me? What a stupid thing to be addicted to, ya know? If you're going to have an addiction, if you want to escape life, pain, etc... then why not go whole hog with REALLY GOOD mind numbing products, I guess that was my thinking on the whole issue. He quit drinking with minimal effort, it seems, so why wouldn't quitting P be easy for him as well?
I didn't give enough credence to his claims that he was a P addict, I guess is the gist of it - so now, I have to recognize that I own the responsibility of not doing enough research on this before the "i do's" - that part is mine. Still, had I done all the research in the world, I could never have prepared myself, without the actual experience of relapse, for how much it would hurt.
Do any of us SO's actually take the "run" advice, or do we all have to find out the hard way? I've seen nothing but hard way stories - how we all want to "stand by our man" and "my PA is different" until we experience this firsthand, huh?
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 10, 2007 14:30:15 GMT -5
Still, had I done all the research in the world, I could never have prepared myself, without the actual experience of relapse, for how much it would hurt. That's pretty much the bottom line for me, too. Mr. LU did not tell me - but there were many obvious clues if I would have had the education to recognize what I was seeing. Even had he known he was PA or had he told me - I would have put on my pink cape and falsely believed that *I* could save him from his addiction and fix the underlying causes. Thank God, God's moved me from that mindset - now I know only He can fix people and deliver them from their problems - including addiciton. Yes. It's hard to base our future on somebody else's history. But it seems eventually we recognize that there are more parallels then differences. LookingUp
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Post by whoami on Oct 10, 2007 15:49:03 GMT -5
I still have some trouble wrapping my head around Porn (Addiction? WTH?) Even tho I had heard some 10 years ago that there were Sex Addiction meeting in the area, I didn't give it much thought. ( I thought I didn't HAVE to, thought that was soooo far away from my world.)
And yes I have to take responsibilty for the fact that porn was in his life when I met him (and looking back I should have known he was WAY addicted to those strip joints.) And thru all his lying and denying, I should have put 2 and 2 together all those years the marriage was so...what? So not anything. But I'm not going to kick myself over it forever!!!
In my 3+ years here, I think I do recall women who came here with concerns but managed to get out before they had too much invested. I don't know if that's so much from the advice to run, or just that they had more brains than I did way back when. But I see a lot of gfs and wives running, but sadly, not before the very hard lessons. Whoami, waving to Grace.........
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Post by Sunshine on Oct 10, 2007 16:43:17 GMT -5
Grace-
My DH goes to a 12 step program and it has been a Godsend to him. Before that, he didn't even know about sex addiction. He does say that it would be better if God would be acknowledged by name, but my DH knows who his Higher Power is. He would like to find a Christian group that would deal with this issue on an honest level. That being said, we have to take help where we find it.
We had an abstinence period of about 7 weeks after D day, and I am sure it was a good thing for us. He was working out of town, so we didn't even see each other. He's never had any problems as far as performance goes, however, I have some new rules. All he has to do to have it is to make ME want it too.I have noticed a difference, tho, in the quality- Its like getting the whole enchilada instead of the leftovers.
I believe that there are so many Christian PA's, because they are human, and satan knows how to attack them where they are vulnerable. They get sucked in by believing the lies- that it won't hurt anyone, that no one will know, that there really is nothing wrong with it, while all the while, satan is hoping that the end result will be destroyed families, wrecked marriages, and even physical illnesses for the PA's.
I love that about God not saving the Jews to die in the desert. I also believe that adversity draws us nearer to Him. How many times do we cry out to him when things are going well for us?
Sunshine
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 10, 2007 18:34:44 GMT -5
Gracebyfaith: Just stopped by to read in your journal. I find the Circle has offered words of wisdom and comfort that seem far greater than any I have for you right now. I offer my prayers and my love for you....and my prayers....and my prayers some more. I did have a bit of a chuckle over the "choosing a REAL addiction" part of your most recent post...I must admit, I had a bit of that reaction (well, a LOT of that reaction) myself. Thanks for the smile. J
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 11, 2007 11:07:41 GMT -5
all the while, satan is hoping that the end result will be destroyed families, wrecked marriages, and even physical illnesses for the PA's. I agree 100%. He can attack one member of the family and can possibly destroy the whole family. Since satan can't be a part of God's family anymore - it's reasonable that he'd love to attack our nuclear families - especially those who are in God's family. Plus, I believe it can become a generational curse - as I watch my youngest son fight the PA like his bio-father had/has and I think my oldest step-son is a SA who cheats on his g/f - I pray that he stops that since they married last month... but why she'd marry a cheater is beyond my understanding. LookingUp
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 15, 2007 9:04:55 GMT -5
Must start doing some serious work in this area - I had posted briefly in the circle about how I plan on doing so - the idea really came from ZT - I don't know if this is bad form, to repost her post in my journal, if so, someone please let me know...ZT's post in red
You take your mind back by refusing to think about that right now, and instead start choosing what you want to think about and when. We have to take control of our time and our minds back from the intrusive demons that haught us. Simply put to a large degree, it's a choice and a habit, and changing it requires great will power.
Decide something better to tell yourself when the thoughts come and tell yourself that every time the thoughts come again. Eventually, when you keep running them off, they will quit coming as frequently. Take each thought and find a resolution for it. Then play that resolution script over in your mind when the intrusive thoughts come. Or force all but one at a time out, and work on deciding what you really think about that one thing, once and for all. Then refuse to think about it, but telling it that you already resolved that and no longer need to hear. Tell yourself you don't want to hear it anymore. That you don't want about that right now! Take charge of yourself, including taking charge of your mind back.
Sometimes I think the intrusiveness is because we have to be forced to face these truths, to slow down and deal with our issues, but at some point, like everything else it can become a bad habit (blaming out) or of over analyzing everything.
Insist on balance in your thoughts and in your life and it will ebb. And sometimes we have to keep hearing it over and over because we haven't learned our lesson yet. And we have to identify the source of the thoughts, are they coming from us, are they coming from others? Who planted those awful seeds and was there any merit in their words at the time. Is there merit now? If not why are we thinking them when we can change them instead. Many come from childhood, a time when we didn't have a choice or know better. But we are grown up now. We have choices, and we know these thoughts aren't working, so keep trying to get rid of them until you find something that works for you. You learn tricks, and skills, if you try. An idol mind is the devil's workshop, so try to get busy to get your mind clear. I know it is sooo hard. For me, it required getting the lies out of me, and learning to honor the truth.
It's the garbage in effect, so we get garbage out. All that crap you're thinking, went in you at some point or another, and if you keep exposing yourself to and / or playing those scripts that is the garbage you will keep getting out. So you have to change the scripts. You have to put good and truth in, and in time you will start to get out good and truth instead.
Had a somewhat unsatisfactory counseling session on Thursday, but a very satisfying discussion with H after counseling. (I'll go into these two in more detail later)
We ran to the store late at night to get some snacks, I was feeling great, all well with the world, in my comfy sweats (ya'll know that comfy sweats aren't necessarily the most attractive clothing, right, ladies?) - long story short, there was a woman in the small convenience store dressed rather immodestly... panic attack ensues. I was running around the store like a rat in a maze to avoid seeing her, so H would not see her, etc...triggered. H could tell I was upset, but I don't think he saw the woman - he had made a small joke, and was thinking that the joke had upset me. (we were getting cake, he had said "cake for the cake hole!" - I was not upset about what he said, but can see why he thought I might be)
Finally, I just exploded, "no, B, I'm upset about the woman in Wawa with her t*ts hanging out all over the place!!!!) Then I burst into tears. I'm not proud of what I said, or the way I reacted, either to H, or in my head - I was overcome with rage and literally wanted to throw that lady down to the ground and beat her.
There was a great post on the board that I read a while back, I believe from ZT also, about naming your triggers, making them easier to identify and heal - I need to find that post again. I believe this hit my "not enough" trigger (which does not come from H - other than his using P, which he was using LONG before we ever met, dated, married, etc..., he has never made me feel not enough. Does that make sense? I think I know what I mean) My initial feeling (before the rage) was, "here I am, looking like a slob in sweatpants and ponytail, I wish my b**bs were bigger, I've gained weight, etc etc) Objectifying both myself and the lady with the clevage.
So I guess that's my "not enough" trigger - which I will rescript with - "yes, I am enough, I am made in the image of God, the Lord of the Universe made me EXACTLY how I am, and I most certainly AM enough"
I have a lot of work to do in this area, and many more triggers to be "named", I am sure - I have to re-read ZT's post above, I didn't even re-read when I just posted here! I wanted to get this out, as it's been on my mind for a while... But this is the strategy I plan on employing to heal from these nightmarish triggers.
As I move along in this process, I would like to share in my journal, and the circle, about specific triggering events - help in naming, identifying, etc...is MORE than welcome!
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Post by whoami on Oct 15, 2007 15:18:53 GMT -5
Grace, I'm so sorry for last night's nasty trigger event. But I like how you named it the "not enough trigger." Can I borrow that??
In my H's SA "white book," emcountering these kinds of women and dress is dealt with in handling THEIR triggers...along with the general eye bouncing and 2 second rules, they are encouraged to pray for the woman. I imagine the thinking is that they can't really lust while engaging with God and turning their attention to the well being of the woman's soul.
So I've tried that too...and found it does beat the alternative of wishing her damned to hell for her callous indiffernce to inciting lust wherever she goes!! I can't help but ask that God give her some wisdom about her choice of dress; right or wrong, that's just my little spin.
If your H had seen her, would he have been triggered, and can you talk about this? What would his emotional reactions be? It's not something my H likes to talk about, but he has admitted to emotional reactions (and I've even witnessed one) of anger when he sees a woman dressed to get lusted after. I think there is some fear there, too.
Looking at this "not enough "trigger as honestly as I can, I would say my response to it is fear, more than anything else. Another name for it, for me, could be "fear of H's lust" trigger, and despair...."how can he even stand a chance" with all of this out there, especially in warm weather. And I think my "not enough" trigger includes and goes far beyond what I see in the mirror, and what the public sees when they look at me...
For all of us struggling with this trigger, I think of Sarah McClaghlins song about being so much more than"good enough." You are all that, Grace, and hang on to that knowledge that being made in His image makes you wonderful and perfect in his sight. And as we grow in character we will simply grow in the only beauty that's real. T*ts hanging out all over the place don't qualify for true beauty, they are just something to trip us and recovering addicts up, like noxious weeds in a garden. ( I think I know what I mean!)
I'm looking forward to exploring triggers with you!!
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 15, 2007 15:51:49 GMT -5
Oh grace, I could relate with the pain of the "not enough" trigger. Like you, my husband has never made me think that I was not enough or defective in any way (except by refusing dressing like the fem triggers like he wanted - and I took my modesty as a compliment).
I am glad you are working on options that will help you deal gracefully and healthily when triggers hit. I'm glad you know that you are enough - because God made you.
I like Whoami's idea of praying for them - for their soul and for modesty! In fact, praying for women's attire in general and Christian women in particular is something I have gad on my prayer list for several years. Maybe I should expand that and pray for the designers to start making more modest, but attractive attire?
I love my comfy, form-less, unflattering sweats. I can't imagine life without them. My husband likes them - says I look like I'd be comfortable to snuggle up with him in them!
LookingUp
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Post by Sunshine on Oct 15, 2007 19:21:43 GMT -5
Grace-
One thing I think is that our men chose us, and they easily could have chosen a slut if they had wanted to. And they knew what they were getting when they chose us. My B never asked me to go out dressed like a tramp. And he tells me if he thinks I have too much makeup on. They aren't looking at these women because we aren't the women that they want. I think that when B cheated on me it was because these women were avaliable. I can't imagine him wanting to take them home to meet mom. He never had any relationship with them. He simply used them as a sex object.
I am so sory you are hurting over this. I almost think this stirs up our fight or flight response. IMO we need to be vigilent to react only when there is a clear threat, otherwise we will never have any peace.
I just found out that a good friend's husband is a S/A, which I think explaines why she got breast implants a couple of years ago. It is really sad to think of the lengths that we go through to change so we can make them happy when it is not about us at all.
Hugs'
Sunshine
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 15, 2007 19:48:00 GMT -5
As someone who rather enjoyed costume once upon a time, I've got say that posts like yours, tonight, dear sister, have me rather reconsidering my entire relationship with costume. I sidelined as a performing artist for many years, and it was standard form for me to dress up in, well, rather eye-catching gear before hitting the local stage or scene. I can honestly say that I never ONCE thought of how my attire was impacting women around me (and I can honestly add that I gave very little thought to how my attire was impacting men around me either). I just liked costume. For me, it may have been a rebellion against my hypocritical upbringing...my mother was the "sexy" one, and I was the drab. I still remember when I stopped wearing size 16 pants and size 2x shirts (as a 19 year old) and found that my actual size at the time was a 2. I had been camouflaging my body for years and years, deeply believing that I was something that I was not, actually. For me, wearing "flaunting" clothing was an incredibly liberating experience. I felt beautiful, and secure in my own self-perception. These days, I think back on some of my "standard evening wear" and shudder at the thought that I might have run into some of the little old ladies I now work with in some my "duds" back then! (It's a very likely possibility. EEEK!!!!!)
With the weight of reading here and my own brief experience railing against my husband's eye seeking and finding ample "boobage" wherever we went, I find myself shuddering at my own choices. There's a lot of food for thought for me in your post. I am very sorry your experience of WaWa was fair ruined by teats on parade. (WaWa is something of a Holy Place for us here--we only get to WaWa when we're in our favorite beach town in Delaware...and "Going to the WaWa" is akin to going to heaven for us! I kid you not!)
I agree with what the other Circle ladies have written in large part. I just wanted to remind myself and to share with you my thought--based on my own experience--that many women act with no malice, no ill-intent in their clothing choices. I also have to add that I COMPLETELY understand what you so accurately and concisely name as the "not enough" trigger...them's very helpful words to me, as I am still struggling with moments of "not enough."
Peace to you tonight, and much love too. J
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 16, 2007 14:03:33 GMT -5
Off-Topic Alert
Wow, Mayberry - you stirred up some old stuff inside me. I remember, back before I was a Christian, when I use to dress very provacatively and dance very provacatively. My "goal" was to get every male eye in the dance-hall on me - and I'd get a kick out of thinking they'd be taking their grey-haired wife home and thinking of me when they made love. How sick is that???
I was saved just a few weeks when I wore a mini-skirt to church with 7" platform heels. I remember turning and reaching behind me because there was no hymnal on my pew - and the lust in the guy's face sitting behind me totally stunned me. That expression "my blood ran cold" - it did - it totally appalled me to the point I about vomited. I had quite a talk with God on the drive home from church about how degraded I felt by that man's lustful look and how God should give that man a strong lecture. God more or less told me if I wanted to be treated like a tramp - then keep dressing like one. I gave all my clothes to Good-Will and went on a sewing spree - haven't wore a dress above the knee since and like it that way (have worn a few above the knee around the house for Mr. LU before I knew about his PA). Seldom even wear a dress or shirt where my collar bones show. I like it that way.
It's interesting to see myself on the other side of the fence from when I use to wear provacative clothing to get attention. Now I abhore that behavior.
LookingUp
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 16, 2007 14:44:22 GMT -5
Off-Topic Alert
Hmmm. I'm sorry, LookingUp, and--more importantly--I'm sorry GracebyFaith if any of what I shared here on your journal this morning was inappropriate or hurtful to you. J
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Post by gracebyfaith on Oct 17, 2007 9:41:52 GMT -5
Real quick post, ladies - nothing inappropriate here! Love you all... I used to dress very provocatively too. Very inappropriate sex life too, for me. Lots of trying to get attention from men for looking a certain way, and still, when I got that attention it was gross. I am NO exception to the sharing here. Did you ever notice how uncomfortable *most* women who dress that way actually seem, once they are getting the sexual attention the attire seems to say they desire? (I was one of them - similar to what you shared, LU, but for a long time I was not saved and was just uncomfortable with the P-gaze I got - you'd think I'd realize not to dress that way if I was uncomfortable.) A lot of triggers I have to heal come from the way *I* have viewed the world... More later. I highly doubt this made much sense.
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Post by whoami on Oct 17, 2007 10:55:18 GMT -5
Totally makes sense to me! I'm an old hippie. Strangely enough, I dressed to please some of the older girls when I was very young college age. They were liberated and (feminist?). What was I doing wearing a bra and still shaving my legs??
Looking back ( and it's been a WHILE) I think I was more stupid, than wanting to attract male attention. My breasts being small back then, I "assumed" they wouldn't make much of an impact being unshackled, even in the tops that were too too see through. What an IDIOT! WHen I noticed anyone looking, I had panic attacks. Couldn't put 2 and 2 together! We are ALL in agreement here, lol. We have all dressed like $luts at times, regardless of the reasons!!!
And oh yes, hippie dippie dooo....it was the free love generation. I was promiscuous before marriage but I gave that all up at the altar. Thought HE did too! Oh ha ha ha ha!!
Look forward to seeing you next Grace! You mentioned a book club.... I have always fantasized about being in a book club! I realize there are some in my area but I'm too shy to do that, but I would love to do it online. Were ya serious? I'd love it! (I'll bring it up again if you forget, lol!)
Hope your day is going well, love ya~
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