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Post by LookingUp on Oct 17, 2007 17:01:13 GMT -5
LU- I hope Mr LU does talk after reading it...thank you for indentifying enough with my words that you felt you could pass them on as indicators of some of your own thoughts/feelings. He did go smoke a few times in the hour after reading. That is usually an indicator that he is digesting it. He read a little, read e-mail, read a little, played a game, read a little.... I finally went upstairs because I could see him flipping screens and my interpretation was he was "duty" reading it. But I realize my perceptions are often wrong. Even though it's painful - having realistic expectations often makes it seem that life moves along smoother. Sure is hard to get to that point (at least for me). Sorta' like buying a birthday or anniversary card..... Really hard to find one that feels natural. Possibly he's projecting what he would do if the tables were reversed? My heart aches for you. That's such a difficult place to be. The NOT knowing, for me, is harder then knowing. At least if we KNEW that they weren't going to try or that they were going to give 100% to trying to get well - then we'd have something concrete to make decisions on. This fence setting (my interpretation: I'll try if it's not too hard) is crazy-making. I'm so sorry you're going through that. LookingUp
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Post by isopeace on Oct 17, 2007 20:40:27 GMT -5
He did go smoke a few times in the hour after reading. That is usually an indicator that he is digesting it. He read a little, read e-mail, read a little, played a game, read a little.... I finally went upstairs because I could see him flipping screens and my interpretation was he was "duty" reading it. But I realize my perceptions are often wrong. Maybe he was reading a bit, then doing other stupid time filler stuff while he digested, then reading some more? I dunno...you know him better then I <obviously..lol> but I really hope, for your sake, that your perception is a bit off this time. yeah...my mouth and fingers are great about thinking realistic..my heart just hasn't caught up to them yet. __________________________________________ I told him before I left for work that I had written him another letter, and left it on the computer desktop. I warned him it was a bit long, and told him to read if only if he *wanted* to. I've been home for about an hour now, and not a word from him about anything - except to tell me my 12 yr old now has the stomach bug...grrrrr. He's sitting behind me, about 10 feet...knows I'm posting here. I'm going to assume that he read it, since he's almost as much of a curiousity-will-kill-me creature as I am. So either he has nothing to say, or he's angry, or both. Time will tell. I'm going to bed early tonite, since last night was such a late one. Tommorrow I want to explore some things...more forgiveness, patience <or my lack thereof> and compassion.
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Post by isopeace on Oct 18, 2007 8:09:32 GMT -5
As I said he probably would, he read the letter within minutes of me leaving the house. He wrote one back (that I didn't see until this am since he was on this computer). It was nothing but a list of the questions, with his answers, and a brief paragraph at the end about how he understands that I have the "right" to know these things, go ahead and ask anymore if I have them, he "thinks" he can "do this" (answer?) ...just be patient with him while he struggles with how difficult it is to let go of the answers, while he "loosens up" enough to answer them.
As I read the answers, I have mixed emotions. There was precious little in the answers that I didn't already know, so he wasn't admitting to much of anything "new", other then he did say that he had visited AFF, but never signed up, and a few other small details that are less important then other things, IMO, so...I guess what I'm saying is I *think* he answered them becuase they were "safe" to answer, since most of the answers were either good (no, i'm not gay) or things I already knew. He didn't have to risk getting into more "trouble", if that makes sense. So, I guess in saying that, I still feel there is probably more to be disclosed (but I knew I'd feel that way), but I'm comforted that he chose to respond with answers instead of anger. I know it's his MO to "hedge" things, but I didn't get the feeling from him on this one. I got the feeling that he was just answering, matter of factly.
I guess I'm frustrated too. I feel like we are still playing the cat 'n mouse game, and the only chance I have of getting the answers I need are to ask the exact right question, worded in exactly the right way. Basically, I feel like my mind is being played with. The one thing that is bothering me the most is this... what is the thing that is so bad that he can't tell me becuase it would be "the last straw"....and the only way I know to ask this is to repeat it the exact way I've typed it here. And I have, and I get nothing in response...just a "can't/won't talk about it" "can't tell you right now"...
This is where I remind myself that I had no expectations of "enlightening" or "lightbulb moments" or "sudden desire to spill all guts onto floor in desperate attempt to show wife our newfound belief that honesty & transparency is best, good, right". I *should* be grateful (and am, in part) that he answered them at all. I *should* be encouraged by that, right? I shouldn't be disappointed. But I am. I'm actually shocked by a thought I had... "man, he didn't acknowledge the time, effort or heart I put into this letter. He didn't "give back" equal to what I put into it. He didn't recognize that this is my heart in words." I'm angry at myself for thinking this way, I'm disappointed in myself for being so selfish. I instantly told myself that is NOT the way i *should* be thinking/feeling...and I'm (at this moment) trying to see good in the fact that he answered at all.... but I really wish he had gotten off his stupid game when I got home, and talked to me. I wish he had felt that this letter was important enough to discuss, or to even mention.." hey, i wrote back to you...can we talk about this?"
So, once again (this is becoming a daily thing) I remind myself of what my expectations were *supposed to be* & I question what they were in actuality.
I wrote something in the parking lot of work last night, and I left it in the car, but I'm going to try to remember what it said best I can...
I read what other PA's think, feel, "understand" and are doing for thier recovery. I get sad and discouraged becuase you don't think, feel, or understand anything that they do. Then I try to remind myself that they didn't get to "that point" without months, maybe even years, of recovery, true active recovery, that I need to be patient with you while you "catch up". Then I get scared that you will never get to "that point" becuase you are not committing to recovery at all.
I'm not sure why I'm writing this here...it just feels right.
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Post by isopeace on Oct 18, 2007 8:49:07 GMT -5
I *know* I could get a divorce, move on, heal myself, find a new man who doesn't have this horrible baggage, and probably live a pretty good life.
I don't want to. I want to have that pretty good life with the guy I have, dammit. I just don't know if I can. I don't know if he'll allow it. I don't know if it's even possible. I don't know if I can even do my half.
I'm feeling so sad this morning, so alone, so deflated, discouraged & just generally like I wanna give up.
People do such hard work here, both the PA's and the SO's. Do I have the strength for that? I don't know. Or is it more that I'm questioning how bad do I want it? If you say you want something, but you can't/won't work as hard as you can to get that thing, is it that you don't want it bad enough? That's what I tell H...if he wanted it bad enough, he'd do anything to get it. But does there come a point where no matter how bad you want something, it wouldn't matter how hard you worked for it because it's just not acheivable? And if so, how do you get to the point where you can accept that? How do you know the difference between that and a state of giving up on something that is possible, but just harder then you want to deal with?
<sigh> I need a break from all of this. I wish he'd come home from work tonight, we'd have a nice family dinner, put the kids to bed, snuggle with a (safe) movie, or play cards or something, and then go to bed, together, happy, peaceful. I need a dose of "this could work" to offset the "omg, this is hopeless" feelings I'm having right now.
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 18, 2007 9:11:16 GMT -5
I'm comforted that he chose to respond with answers instead of anger. That sounds positive to me. That's very frustrating because it puts him in the position of power. Play the game "right" and maybe you'll win the prize of an answer. Aurgh. I think it's part of the male superiority - female object mindset that porn instills. It hurts. Any boundaries you can make so you feel safe even though he chooses to keep his secrets? Example: I feel unsafe since you have secrets; until I feel safe, I will need to <behavior> here. Like not sleep with you, not sleep in the same room, not cook your meals, not wash your clothes..... Sometimes their responses and their attitudes about it feel so very hollow... it feels like the same game with slightly different moves. Where his addiction is concerned - he hasn't given equal for a long time - and disclosure is part of coming out of the addiction. I think some of that is gender communication. Our girlfriends would know that. But guys probably figure that letter in - letter out: it's handled. I think we have to coach them so they know what we want. Humans are not mind-readers so we have to ask for what we want in words they can hear. I think many of us feel that way. I wish we could stuff them in a toaster - let the heat burn the disease/addiction/sin out of them and they pop up in 30 seconds fully restored, sober and full of healthy interpersonal skills. I realize God could miraculously do that - but often God uses the process of healing for them to get healthy. LookingUp
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 19, 2007 6:18:43 GMT -5
I hope you and your husband can find a way to give yourselves some of that normalcy. While your mileage may vary, I know that I needed some of those moments of normalcy to keep going, even in the WORST of "it" for us. It's very hard. For me, my whole being was screaming "we're in crisis!" and, being the person I am, I wanted to address that crisis and "put it behind us." I still have days where I feel something very similar. But my truth is that I can't be on crisis mode all the time; it's spiritually, emotionally and physically exhausting. And, for me, with exhaustion comes hopelessness. And with hopelessness, comes further exhaustion.
For me, I think it's a bit like how folks handle cancer. I personally believe that it's good to have a very aggressive/assertive approach to one's treatment. I have seen people who "become cancer." It is their whole waking life. They are researching, going to doctors, reading, thinking, worrying, wondering. ALL THE TIME. They are often tired and anxious and feel "overwhelmed." Others are also actively fighting the cancer, but they make time to be with friends, do "good things for themselves" on the physically "good" days, be gentle with themselves on the bad days. They are often optimistic and feel "pretty good, all things considered." Both "sets" of people are still fighting the cancer. But the second "set" is doing it with some balance in their lives. With some care for their "whole being" if you will. They don't allow their lives to "become the cancer." Does that make any sense?
I think that was just a fairly long-winded way of saying: You know, I don't think there's anything wrong with a nice dinner, a game of cards, a movie, a hug. In fact, I think there's a lot RIGHT with it and you may need to *ask* for those times/create them yourself. As I wrote before, in my life, I needed those things to sustain me through what was truly a dark time and to give me nourishment in the moment, and to give us both a bit of a break from the problem we were both dealing. I did not want to "become an SO". I am an SO, but I am a whole richer human as well, and I must help my "whole self" stay intact in the process of dealing with the fallout of my husband's addiction.
My thoughts are with you this morning. J
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 26, 2007 5:39:00 GMT -5
You've been a bit quiet here, and I am just stopping by to say hello and to let you know I'm thinking of you. I wouldn't be surprised if you've taken a bit of a break for your own mood-improvement...and I hope your recent absence is *not* because of fresh levels of Hades at home? You're in my thoughts. J
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Post by isopeace on Oct 30, 2007 12:17:23 GMT -5
J.. thank you for thinking of me. No new levels of hell..just the same old same old. I have been quietly lurking a few minutes a day, but haven't actually signed on, and have been limiting my time here. I just don't have anything to say that I haven't already said. I'm finding myself withdrawling from everyone and everything, and I know its not healthy...but it's like I just don't have the energy or even desire to stop myself. I'm sure I'll be around some. I'm due to write an update post/book anyway...just wish I had good things to report.
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Post by Mayberry on Oct 30, 2007 17:16:09 GMT -5
I wish you had good things to report too and am sorry that it's been "more of the same" for you. When you're ready to claw your way back into connection with folks here, know that I'll be happy to see you (I was happy to see your post today!!!!). And until then, know that folks care about you (I sure do! and I'm not alone), and will look eagerly for news of you. J
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 30, 2007 18:36:57 GMT -5
It was nice to see your post; I'd been concerned about you. I'm sorry things seem stagnate - praying that you start see some major changes in your life and marriage.
LookingUp
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 13, 2007 14:37:07 GMT -5
Still thinking of you, and wanted to stop by your journal and tell you so. J
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Post by isopeace on Nov 13, 2007 14:57:28 GMT -5
I posted this on the SO board..just keeping for reference sake, in case I feel like revisiting it. I've been MIA. I originaly started by just lurking here for a little while every day. I was getting overwhelmed by all the pain on this board, by the seeming impossible struggles on the PA board, and by the general feeling that I was spending too much time here. Then, I just stopped lurking all together..it's just easier to avoid it I guess. Being here reminds me of how much I hate this crap, his attitudes, his addiction, his complacancy, his unwillingness to be open, honest or even pretend to be. Seeing the few success stories just makes it even harder...I get sad for something that I fear I'll never have.
But I wanted to just stop in, say hi, and give my little update, if you can call it that. Nothing has really changed. He's still going to his SA meetings, supposedly. I'm starting to get the feeling he's not going, but when I confronted him on it (by checking the mileage on the car) he FREAKED on me... his response screamed defensive to me, and I can't figure out why he'd be that angry if he really was going. It was more like he got angry because he thought I caught him. At this point, I do not believe he's going. I feel a bit bad that I'm so distrusting (like, what if he really is going, doesn't he deserve the benefit of the doubt?), but he won't talk about the meetings, he won't talk about any of it, and there's nothing else to show me that he is going. He's not doing anything else..no online support group, no therapy, no books, no sponsor through SA, nothing. He's supposedly been writing down things (urges, desires, slips, etc) in a journal, but he won't even show me that the journal exists. I don't wanna read it, but I don't believe it's even real.
He's still not telling me about slips, until a week or so after (and only then If/When I ask).....and he's been slipping every 5-8 days since he started going to meetings, as far as I know...I have a feeling theres plenty more I don't know about. So much for his promise, then repromise, to tell me by the end of that day if he did slip. I even suggested writing down "I slipped" and leaving it where I'd find it, with a promise from me not to attack him for it, but to wait, calm down then approach him to discuss it. He said he would, but then I find out he hasn't... Basically he said a few things after I found out the last "slip".. 1) I asked the guys in my meeting what I should do, and they say not to tell you anything about slips. 2) You can't make me tell, and I'm not going to tell because it will ruin the fact that we have been pretty much getting along. (which is pretty much a fake co-existance based on my belief that he is trying to be sober, when in fact he's slipping and not being honest.) 3) it's none of your business. (so, I'm supposed to just trust that he's staying sober, then to find out 3 years form now he's been slipping all along? I think not.) 4) I'm making progress, so too bad if you don't see it or don't think it's good enough. 5) Stop looking for negative (checking mileage to see if he's going, occassionaly scanning the info on the keylogger, etc) and start looking for positive. ( what positive ? ) 6) He's not lying or being dishonest by not telling me if/when he slips 7)Besides, it wasn't really a slip, I'm just calling it that because YOU would consider it one...
Again, I told him I couldn't live the rest of my life with a man who will not adopt the belief that i deserve to know things such as slips, meeting attendance or lack thereof, etc. His response, then go then..
There was more..but it was a week ago, so I can't remember, maybe I don't want to. We haven't talked about it since. I asked him today when are we going to talk about what happened last Tuesday. He said "What happened last Tuesday?". Man, that makes me & my feelings feel so very high on his list of priorities, huh?
Ya know, I think it doesn't realy matter. I say I just want some kind of proof of him changing. I think about following him to his meeting, etc..stupid, huh? And I suppose that doesn't really matter anyway. In reality, he could be going to the meeting just for show anyway...what does it prove just that he's going? Nothing. I guess I just need to accept his words/attitude as proof that while he may (supposedly) be "trying", he isn't changing. His attitude of "she has no right to know, I don't have to tell her anything" says it all, right? And how can I possibly believe that he really IS trying & telling me truths when he continues to have this attitude.
If he was willing to talk about things like times he's been able to resist temptation, things he's learning from SA, etc, then maybe I could see positive. Right now I can't. And every time I find out he's slipped but refused to tell me, even after I've poured my heart out about how I'd settle for honesty, even if it meant knowing he wasn't sober, how I NEED honesty, it makes me care a little less about him, about us. I still go back and forth over wanting to stay/leave...and I know i've screamed, I'm getting a divorce, I'm done! here before..but in a quiet calm moment, I can honestly say that every day that goes by that he avoids me, the truth & this addiction, I start to detach a bit more. And that sucks, but it's true. I may live the next 5 years this way, but I refuse to live the rest of my life this way.
Anyway, there it is..an update of a unchanged situation. I'm not going to promise I"ll be around more, becuase I really don't honestly know if I will.
I hope all the new women that have joined recently can gain comfort & strength from the other wonderful women here, and I wish peace & strength for everyone here...PA's & SO's alike. **hugs**
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Post by Mayberry on Dec 25, 2007 7:07:27 GMT -5
Sending warm and loving Christmas wishes your way. J
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