My Reflecting Pool

[Mayberry]

Isopeace: It seems from over here (waves) that there are many baby steps being taken in the right direction in many areas of your home right now! I came away from reading your journal with the sense that much is heading in a positive direction, while you are still (naturally, in my experience) grappling with how much faith to have in any particular step being part of stronger walk for you and for your husband. I think this is where I throw in my sisterly advice to 1) go easy on yourself and feel whatever you need to feel and try not to beat yourself up over areas of doubt and fear and 2) be accepting of every change that feels *real* to you and 3) examine and (if needed) reject changes in your husband that do not feel *real* to you? But free advice is, as the old saying goes, worth what you pay for it!

My thoughts are with you, and thank you for continuing to share yourself and your path here. I continue to follow your journey with compassion, care and interest. J

[isopeace]

Thank you Jinn, for the encouragement. I wish I could see where you think progress is being made, becuase truthfully it feels like one step forward, twenty back.
I don't think I'll post much today. There's too many things cluttering my mind.
As a sidenote, I see LU's back... I'm so glad to see that.

[Mayberry]

ISOpeace: I took your bewilderment literally. Here's some of what caused me to write what I wrote to you yesterday.
1. You reevaluated some of your expectations of husbandly behavior for right now.
2. You wrote and shared a letter. It sounds like he received the letter well.
3. He initiated a conversation with you.
4. He removed a troublesome TV channel from your home.
5. You-all talked about keyloggers and they're going to be on all computers.
6. You seem to be feeling an internal shift/ramping down of/awareness of your need to "monitor". For me, that change from "gotta see everything right now" to "I want to be able to look when I need to look" signaled a shift toward my life feeling a bit less overwhelmingly crappy. So I read into that some hope that better times might be coming inside you.
7. Your youngest child is walking!!!!

That's what I saw, in part, that prompted my comments. Hope it helps. J

[isopeace]

Wow, I feel overwhelmed. Not sure why I feel that way, but now that I said it, I'm gonna journal...lol

I guess I do feel like some small progresses are being made (thanks in part to mayberry pointing them out..thank you ).

He went to his 2nd meeting this am. I'm having to really restrain myself from asking him how it went, what he's thinking, etc. I keep wanting him to clarify what "sober" means to him...does it mean he hasn't had bad thoughts? does it mean he hasn't allowed the bad thoughts to stay in his mind when they appear? does it mean he hasn't mb? What DOES it mean? But I can't bring myself to ask, and I'm refusing as of now to ask anything else. I'm trying to tell myself I don't NEED to know, I WANT to know...and the reason i WANT to know is becuase I feel a need to "monitor" his progress, make sure he's recovering "right", thinking the "right" things, etc... UGH! I know I can't do that...it's HIS walk, HIS recovery..back off! Soooo much easier said then done. <sigh>

I've read bits and pieces of his "white book", and I've gotten wierd mixed feelings about some of the things I've read, and some of the things he's said about the meetings. I can't even really put a finger on why/what is bothering me exactly, so I'll have to come back to that..

I keep feeling like we are sitting on the brink of a huge secret that needs to be revealed, or maybe a basketful of small ones.. It's probably just in my head, but the feeling of it being there is very real, and it's quite unnerving.

All in all, this past week has been calm. There was a semi-questionable thing in my keylogger records (that originally sent me into a full blown panic, with all kinds of what if scenarios going through my mind..), so I calmly asked, and he graciously explained, and I saw I was over-thinking it..turns out, it was totally innocent (I think I *knew* it probably was before I asked). I told him what I was thinking, told him I appreciated the answers he gave, that I believed him (and I really do!). So, that was one good thing...the ability (for that moment) to have a rational discussion, for me to ask him something without him freaking out about me "interrogating" him, as he's been known to do. That in itself is a HUGE thing...I can't even put into words how nice it was just to get answers, no anger, from him.

My youngest has surgery on the 11th, so I'm starting to freak out about that. It's something I haven't had to face yet with my kids, surgery. It's a whole new world of worries, and I already worry enough for half the popluation of the US.

My mom is coming over this afternoon....I don't want to discuss anything even remotely related to my marraige, my husband's issues, or even mine for that matter. I just want her to come, enjoy the kids, eat, and go home happy.

I've only checked the keylogger twice since I last posted in my journal. I think that's progress for me.

The guy who runs the SA mtg H goes to asked him to ask me if I'd be interested in "starting" a Sa-Anon group here. I think I mentioned a few entries ago that there isn't one around here. I don't know what "start one" means, and to be honest, it scares me. We'll have to see what the guy says when he gets the info.
Mayberry said (in her journal), among other things, that she appreciated me. I've had just a few people say that to me in those words exactly "I appreciate you." I'd love to know why those words always make me cry.

My oldest is bugging me for the computer..lol..so I guess that means I gotta go. I'll come back to finish this later.

*hugs* to everyone here....we all need them.

[Mayberry]

*hugs* right back to you, ISOpeace. And it's true, I deeply appreciate you (not trying to make you cry or anything...just needs saying again and again). You are an obviously loving, caring, searching, seeking, compassionate, loving and loveable human, and I'm glad to know you, even just a little bit! I hope that, as days go by more, more and more folks in your life will find ways to show or to say to you just *how much* you are, among other things, genuinely appreciated and liked. I continue to follow your journal with care and concern and all best wishes. I will pray for your child on the 10th and 11th; I've made a note in my calendar. J

[isopeace]

Well, if there's anything I learned last night, it's don't have serious, possibly life-altering conversations after midnight. They don't end until 2:30 am, and leave you feeling like a part of you has died and come back to life in the worst hell you could imagine. Ok, perhaps a bit overdramatic description of the aftermath, but still...I wouldn't recommend finding out for yourself.

He brought up his SA meeting. He said that they discussed sobriety and what it meant. He said he had actually brought up the conversation becuase he didn't know when to set his sobriety date. He needed clarification on what exactly was a "slip" and what wasn't. We talked about the opinions of the other guys in the group (he was very careful not to discuss them in detail..he's taking the whole group anonomity thing very seriously.) He said that "the book" says sex with yourself or someone other then your spouse is considered a break in sobriety, but he also said that obviously in his case, pictures, chats, and even letting his "thoughts" go beyond that first initial thought (instead of diverting), would all be considered slips in his case. I used this as an opprotunity to use Random77's boundary (hope she doesn't mind me "borrowing" it). I told him that while I hated the "thoughts", hated the fact that he may "slip", I accepted that it may be part of the process. I said I could not accept the lies anymore, and that if he did slip in any way, he had to "come clean" on his own by the end of that day. He seemed perfectly fine with that, even agreed that honesty was important.

Then we got back to the sobriety issue. I asked him if, according to the "definition" we were using to define sober, did he stay sober that day. He said yes. I said, ok..yesterday? He thought for a minute or two, and then said "I don't remember." This was the first statement of the night that just struck me like a lead pipe upside the head. How can you not remember? I read this as "Being "sober" doesn't mean enough to me that I'm paying attention to my thoughts." or "I didn't stay sober, but I'm not going to tell you." He keeps saying that he doesn't remember after the fact, that he has these thoughts, in various degrees of depth, then once the thought is gone, he moves on with his life and doesn't think about it again, until the next time. I'm having a really hard time with this. I know when I tried to quit smoking, I could without a doubt tell you the last time I smoked. Maybe I'm being completely unreasonable, but I would think if he really wanted sobriety, he would be keeping a close eye on his thoughts, since thats where his battle will be won or lost.

That brings me to the next comment he made that really hurt. "I don't think I'm at the place where I'm 100% ready to let it go." Part of me hears this as the way he probably meant it, the way he says he meant it.."It's a constant battle, one half of me says you don't need it, the other part says keep it around, you might need it someday". Ok, this I can relate to in a way. But, my heart heard his first statement as "I'm not yet 100% at a place where me, you & our marraige are worth giving it up." So, this is the first (and only time) I raised my voice, and said, how can you NOT know wether you want to let it go or not? How is that possible?" He said "Don't yell at me or I'll stop talking. You want honesty, here it is..don't yell at me." OMG.....it's not like I'm sitting there ranting & raving. I raised my voice for pete's sake. What you said really triggered some bad emotions in me, and I raised my voice. And I "heard"..."if you are going to have a reaction that I'm not comfortable with, I'm just not going to tell you what you want to know." I felt smooshed, silenced. And I told him that. He said no, he just didn't want it to escalate into a huge fight. I said, neither do I, but you have to understand that these issues are huge pressure points right now, and my responses to things are not always going to be perfect, I'm going to be hurt, angry, etc...YOU have to ACCEPT that, not try to shut me up by holding the idea of "honesty as long as you're nice 'n quiet" over my head. I felt manipulated & shut down.

So then he said, "see, I keep saying things, and you keep taking them the way you want to, which is totally NOT the way I mean them, and then we have these huge fights" So (just like he said I would) I hear, "All the fights we have are your (my) fault becuase you don't hear me or take my word for what I say." And I told him thats what I "heard" He laughs, and says see what I mean? You're taking everything I say the wrong way. At this point I just wanna crawl in a hole & cry till my eyes bleed.

At some point in the conversation, I told him I was glad he had brought up his SA meeting. I reinforced that I did want to hear what he was thinking, how he was doing, etc. , and it was nice that he was initiating the conversation. I said that it was nice to have conversations like these without it turning into a fight. That while the subject matter may not be the easiest, it might hurt & it will be hard, it was needed. He agreed, then followed it up with a "Ya know, it will be very hard for me to tell you when I slip..I don't know if I can do that." <insert mental scream here> But, I calmly looked him in the eye, said "I love you, but I really don't give a (expletive) how uncomfortable, embarrassing & hard it is for you. You have to do it." He said, yeah, I know, but it's going to be hard...I just..I dunno..

He did tell me (at some point in this) about a bikini model filled calander that mailed to his work. He said that the second he saw what it was, he stuffed it back in the envelope, threw it in the garbage, then stared at the garbage, having the internal "I wanna save it..no I don't" arguement. Then he asked one of the other guys at work to get rid of it. I told him I thought that was great, that he showed he was stronger then the "evil voice" telling him to keep it. He seemed proud of himself. But at the same time, I felt resentment. It was like he was working really hard at fluffing it up "Yeah, it was really hard..I really had to think about my meetings, etc" trying to make himself look "oh so good" for being able to resist. Maybe I'm just angry that I have to rely on his ability to resist, and the fact that I'm supposed to be proud of him when he diesn't give in to his desires...well, damn it, I am proud, but i'm also angry that he has those desires in the first place. Maybe this makes me a selfish person who doesn't deserve to be around him, that will not be able to be supportive of his recovery process..I dunno.

I asked him the last time he "remembers" doing something he would consider a slip. He said Saturday at work. He said he had thoughts, let them carry on thier merry way for a minute, then just walked away and never thought about it again. He told me what the thoughts were that time, what kinds of thoughts he has had in the past. That was definatly a double-edged sword. IF he's being honest, then they aren't as "bad" as I imagined they could be. So, in that respect, if I believe him, it was a relief. On the other hand, to hear him say he thought those things...well, I felt like I was dying inside. It just made this whole thing that much more real...I didn't think that was possible. I said "thank you for telling me. I wish you had told me without me asking...especially when I told you how I expected you to come clean on your own from now on. That woulda been a perfect time to start.."Honey, I need to tell you something about Saturday..." It's not fair that I have to drag everything out of you."

At this point, it was 2:30am, we were in bed, and he was half asleep...so after about 5 minutes of silence, he just said "I'm sorry for pushing your buttons 'n stuff earlier" I said, ok...then we said goodnight. He fell asleep in about 30 seconds, and I cried myself to sleep a little while later.

This recovery (mine) (expletive) sucks. This addiction (expletive) sucks. I don't know if I can deal with this for the rest of my life. I really don't know.

So, kiddies, what did we learn in our daily lesson?
1. Do not have these types of conversations that late at night.
2. My H is not ready for recovery (wait..I already knew that I think)
3. Do not ask questions if you don't want the answers.
4. Be prepared for said answers, and have the ability to react to them as if you were made of steel. (yeah right)
5. Do not expect him to care. I've been on the back burner to p/lust our whole relationship. Now, I'm on the back burner to his "recovery".
6. I'm going to let the anger live today. I know it's not right, but part of me says I have the right to be angry.
And the biggest lesson?
7. Stop doing the same things and expecting different results. It makes you an idiot, through & through.

[PrinceCharmsFool]

isopeace,

7. Stop doing the same things and expecting different results. It makes you an idiot, through & through.

I think we all battle this, or at least I do. Do you think a big rock to the side of my head would help?

Well anyways, I wanted to let you know I am praying for you and your family. I am not a good advice giver, but wanted you to know, like others, I am reading your journal journey and am here for you.

*huggers* pcf

[isopeace]

OH man...I gotta vent, cry, beat myself up & just get this out right now.

I might go to jail today...I doubt it, but the possibility is there. He pushed one too many buttons, and I lost it. I let myself down, I'm better then this. I'm actually a little scared that I reacted the way I did.

I'm not even going to bother to try to really explain what happened, because its all mumbled in my head. He said alot of hurtful things, trying to compare me to him, comparing things I've done & my lack of caring about his feelings to things he's done & his hurting me. Accusing me of having a backup plan for when i finally get the balls to leave him (a guy I know online that I talk to in a game once in awhile..who happens to live in India & is very much in love w/ his fiancee...who I also talk to). Telling me that I don't care about my children, the house, anything. Telling me he was kicking me out of the house. Lots of other things. I pushed him, backed him into a wall a few times, ripped his shirt accidentally while trying to force him out of the house. Then I tried to wrap my arms around him from behind...just trying to get him to shut up and listen to me...only to realize a few seconds later I was choking him with my arm against his throat. I can't even remember now what I was trying to say at that point. It took me 30 minutes to stop shaking & sobbing after that.

I was so angry..so angry that he would use something I did 7 years ago against me and yet expect me to forgive something as recent as a few days ago. Angry that he is accusing me of double standards (because me talking platonically to a man is the same as him doing what he does.) Angry that I allowed him to bait me. Angry that I lost control. Angry that he can't see things "my" way. Angry that he expects patience, love, respect & understanding from a woman that he's trampled.

So, now I'm nothing more then a controlling wife who lost it and physically assualted her husband. I feel lower then low right now.

He took off his ring & threw it at me..told me to put it where ever I put mine (I haven't been wearing it for about 6 months now..several reasons). He said that if I was choosing not to divorce him, that the only choice left was to stick by him while he worked on this his way. I told him I felt he wasn't doing anything except going to one mtg a week for an hour. I told him I didn't feel that was enough. He could be reading. He could be pouring alot more energy into this "recovery". He said maybe 1 hour a week was all he could give, all he wanted to give.

I know I was wrong. I told him I was sorry..that I didn't mean to act like a maniac. I told him there is just too much anger, too much hurt so close to the surface. I told him that I can't live like this. I can't deal with all of this, his addiction, my own issues, the anger, the hurt, the everything.

He's angry, understandably so. But he's also sticking to his guns that I'm wrong for having male friends because of my "track record"...which consists of me breaking up with him after we had ben dating a few months, seeing someone else for a week, then coming back to him. Oh...and the time I went out for ice cream w/ a guy the last time we "broke up". He continues to fault me for things he does himself. He continues to say that I have double standards. He continues to hide things, lie & have no regard for the little things I've asked him to do (let me sleep in once in awhile, etc. ) He said if I make him leave, he won't come here at night to watch the kids..He "refuses to let me use him as a babysitter" so I can work. I feel he is so self centered about everything. Like always, he could give 2 sh!ts about my feelings about anything. He said he had to be...that I was second shelf to his recovery...

There was alot of other things said..but its all hazy.

He said he's leaving for the day and looking for a place to live.

I don't expect anyone reading this to have any kind of sympathy for me. I f'ed up this time. I know it. I just can't believe how quickly things went from "kinda ok" to all hell breaking loose. I didn't even know I was that angry. I didn't think I'd ever go this far. I'm hating me right now. I told him go ahead and call the police. He said "nah, I don't feel like it right now."

I thought about taking a bunch of pills. I don't have any..and I would never leave my children that way...but I thought about it. (Please do not read this as a suicide threat....it's really not.) It would be easier. Sometimes I think I'm doing more harm to everyone then good. but I also know that would do more harm then anyone could ever repair. I'm not interested in ruining my childrens lives anymore then I already have.

I don't know when he'll come back. I don't know what his mood will be. I hate that he now has the upper hand in this. A part of me is really wishing I could just sign a paper and have this nightmare over.

[Mayberry]

Darlin', I'm so sorry. What a mess. It's natural, I think, to ponder "having it over with" (death, divorce, what-have-you). This too will pass. You describe much of what happened as "hazy", so may I suggest that you might want to stick with the simple version: you know you did not act in the healthiest of ways, you really were not in a place (emotionally) to live through a "factual" rehashing of what did or did not happen, it sounds like he was also not acting in the healthiest of ways (what you wrote summoned a lot blame-shifting "vibes" in me), and you *may* want to try to realize that you're in a hell-bound place right now, and give yourself the gift of SLEEP with little thought and try again tomorrow?

And perhaps, tomorrow, it might be useful to journal or ponder what might be helpful to YOU right now. Just like the "wild idea" list?

Perhaps a formulation like this would help: I would feel more comfortable in my own skin if I did (x) when he does (y). I would feel more comfortable in my own skin if I chose to do (x) when I am feeling (y).

For example: I would feel more comfortable in my own skin if I said, "I love you, but I need a break for 20 minutes because the tone of our conversation is making me angry, and when I'm angry, I can't think clearly. I want to be clear about what I'm feeling, not just "reacting" to what you say or what I'm feeling." I'd like it if you stuck around (or left for 20 minutes, or let me leave for 20 minutes) and I'll be back and let me try this again. Thank you."

And, just because I think it needs saying: blameshifting is a VERY real phenomenon. You have the right (always) to say, "I feel that you are trying to make this conversation about me. I am happy to talk to you about what I've done or not done, but I want you to keep talking about yourself right now. Let me make a note of that point you just made, and I'll come back to that later." There are more elegant ways of phrasing that....but please don't (continue to) let yourself be diverted by a recounting of the ways you've done wrong by the addict who is suffering. (We call this "counting someone's legs" in my household. And it's very effective: LOOK AT YOU! Let's not talk about me! Let's examine how YOU are messed up. I strongly encourage you to give yourself permission to NOT have your legs counted right now.

(((((HUGS))))))

J

[PrinceCharmsFool]

**HUGGERS**

No advice to give, once again.
I wanted to let you know, you are in my thoughts and prayers.

pcf

[isopeace]

J & pcf..
Thank you for responding in love & encouragement instead of judgement & scolding (even though it was deserved). I honestly didn't expect that...but thank you.

Mayberry..I'm trying to not let my legs be counted. That's hard for me...to effectively turn the conversation back to him when he tries to shine lights on me. In this particular situation (yesterday) he started it, the conversation WAS about me...so if I had turned it around (which, right or wrong, I tried..) I guess I would be the one blameshifting, right?
I have no idea what you mean by "wild idea list". I have never been comfortable in my own skin, so this is a rough one for me. The only things I can think of that would be good for me right now are not realistic..sleep, vacation, him just holding me for hours, no sex, just telling me over & over that he KNOWS my pain, and he's TRUELY sorry....validation from him would be the best medicine right now... and him bending over backwards and working his a$$ off to find every possible recovery method & try it...really really TRY...
I know this isn't what you meant, so I'm going to have to think about it.... maybe I could form it like "I would feel better about ME if I did " x " when he does " x ". Again, this is going to be hard for me..I really don't know what to put there.
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I slept last night, about 7 hours. It would have been enough if I haven't come down with a horrible head cold. So now I feel like an elephant has stomped my head..lol

I apologized again to him last night. (He came home shortly after he left. He didn't look for a place to go.) I told him that I was extremely sorry for allowing my anger to overflow to the point that I was that out of control. I told him that while I felt like there was so much still bottled up inside of me, anger, fear, hurt, etc, that there was no good excuse for the way I acted. He said "don't worry about it, its ok." I said, I have to worry about it, becuase I keep preaching "stay in control" to you, and now I've become a hypocrite." He had no answer for that, I started to cry, and left the room, going to bed shortly after that.

I just can't figure out how to let go of everything I think about & feel. It has gotten to the point where this whole thing (his addictions, my pain, my anger, our failing marraige) is the first thing I think of in the morning, and usually the last thing I think of at night, with hours of thinking in between. It's amazing to me that with all this time spent on analyzing the problems, supposedly coming up with a few solutions here 'n there that I still can't manage to feel at ease with any of it. I can't even effectively really explain what this is doing to me, (except that now more then ever, I feel lost, unwanted, torn in half, in limbo, alone, and a host of other unpleasant but undescribable feelings) and the wierd thing is I don't understand why it's hitting me so hard right now. Maybe it's the more indepth disclosure of his thoughts the other night. Maybe it's my perception of his lack-luster approach to recovery, one that didn't even begin on his terms. Maybe its just that I'm finally seeing that this is going to be an ongoing battle forever, and I don't know if I can deal with that reality, and I'm sad that I might not have the commitment in me to love this man and see him through this. That in itself makes me feel like a worthless failure. How could I even consider leaving him when he's down? Am I being too hard on him? And then I think, well, wait a sec.. what about me? What about what this has done to me? Is sacrificing evevrything I should have (love, happiness, respect, etc) worth it just so I can say I didn't leave him? No...but still he deserves love too... it's an endless circle.

I watched a show last night about inmates of San Quentin prison. There was this guy who was in for 4 years, another one in for 10...they had wives who loved them, even though they were drug addicted, selling, & worse. The wives stood by thier men. I'm thinking to myself a) I wish I was that commited b) She's stupid for sticking by him (talk about contradicting thoughts, huh?) and c) I bet my H would wish I was like them, willing to stand by him no matter what.

I'd really like a day filled with smiles, love, hugs & nothing even remotely tainted with all this bs. I'd like one day where I can just get rid of the tears that are always welled up just behind my eyes, the nagging anger inside my stomach & the aching in my heart. I'd like just for a few hours to not be this person...to be someone who's lived a happy life. I need to get away from all of this, and as much as I tell myself that, I just can't get past these stupid feelings. I feel like I'm sliding backwards, not moving forward like I thought I was just a few days ago. I'm discouraged by that. I was starting to feel strong. I was starting to feel like, ok, this is possible, it can be done, it will be done, it's ok..I will survive this. Now I feel like running away & hiding & never having to face this again.

OK, I'm just rambling now, so I'm gonna go, or this could turn into the monster post if all time..lol

I hope anyone who reads this has a wonderful day.

[Mayberry]

Still reading....hang in there, dear. Your journal makes a lot of sense to me....and I think you will come to see, with time and patience with yourself, what is best for you--to stay or to go. You're a loving, good, worthy lady, no matter *what*. I'm rooting for you. I believe you not only will "survive" this, but you will learn to live too. I'm praying for the day when you will have that day you mention--smiles, love, hugs and more. It will come. You will make it through. You will. (HUGS) J

[isopeace]

I believe you not only will "survive" this, but you will learn to live too.

This really speaks to me. I haven't been living...for many many years. I have been exsisting, doing the day-to-day stuff, sometimes not even that. In the years before my now-h, I was with a man who had a horrible addiction to crack, among other things. I wasn't "living" then either. I was either in a drug-induced "life" along with him, or I was pulling myself out, with him trying to drag me back in. Now, for the last few years, I've been living in the shadows. I don't go out, ever. I rarely take the kids out. I go to work, come home. I don't have friends. I have family, but we aren't close. I have a cat who I used to love..i don't even pet him anymore. And, I've tried to break out of this. It's actually painful. It's hard to become a part of the "living" again. I want to, but I guess I'm not really sure how. I do need to work on this though..soon.
***********************

So he slept in the other room last night. I helped him clean out the room, he took the alarm clock, his pillow, changed the sheets on the bed in there, made it, and he slept there last night. I don't know if this is just a temporary thing, or if this is the beginning to the end....it *feels* more like the latter.
It's ok. He broke our agreement, and so I laid this out as the "reaction" I choose to make. I got a bit angry that he didn't fight it, just said ok. But then I realized that its just crap..I don't need him to crawl on his hands and knees begging me to let him sleep in our bed. I need him to either get serious about his recovery or get out of my life. God, it sounds so cold, but that's the way it is.
So, I went to bed, curious if he'd come and try to talk to me, since he didn't say 3 words to me when I got home last night. He didn't, and I fell asleep, and I slept well.
We'll see how tonite goes.
I'm just wondering what to tell the kids when they ask...

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I posted this on the partner's forum...I'm putting it here just for reference sake.

OK, so I told my h that while I didn't think "slips" were ok, that I understand they will probably happen. I also said that I expected that they would lessen over time as he continues his recovery. I told him I expected him to tell me about every "slip" he has by the end of that day. We defined slips as mb, pictures, inappropriate chatting, and letting his thoughts carry on past the first initial thought when he sees a triggering person, image, etc. I told him I didn't want to find out after the fact through my own findings, that it would mean everything to me if he would just come clean on his own, that this would show he was serious about being honest from now on. I got this idea, which I thought was a great one, from another SO here (sorry, I don't remember who). He said that it would be hard, almost impossible to do this when it came to the thoughts about real women, but that he would. See, he's not really A/O anymore...its all mental to him now. He basically just "thinks" things about the women he sees in everyday life. And I told him it would be very hard for me, since theres no outward proof of this type of "slip" (not stopping his thoughts immediatley when he has them), but that I could "handle" slips, just not the lies & secrecy. That same night, we set his "sobriety date" as the previous Saturday, the 29th.

Fast forward...on the 5th, I asked him if this was day 5 for him. He said yes. Now, we were in the middle of a huge fight, but still...he said, yes, he had been 5 days without any kind of slip.

Then yesterday, we got to talking (argueing, discussing, etc) about things, and I asked him what day it was for him. He said 3. So I'm no math wizard, but if the 5th was day 5, then the 7th couldn't be day 3 unless he lied to me on the 5th. And, according to our "agreement", he blew it. He never came to me and told me...I had to ask. So, I called him on the lie. He basically got very angry, but blew it off as "I can't tell you that stuff..it's too hard. You're being selfish for expecting me to tell you things I'm not comfortable telling you." etc..

Later on, he said he was going to quit his recovery. He tried to blame it on me, saying that I was pressuring him too much to do it MY way, that he couldn't handle that on top of all the other pressures in life. I don't think its true that I'm pushing. All I've told him is that I think there's more he could & should be doing then going to a 1 hour mtg a week. I told him that saying "that's all I'm willing/able to do at this point" was just showing me that he wasn't serious about this. I've told him I don't see him as someone who's in recovery..I see him as someone who's going to a mtg every week to shut up the wife, and half-heartedly trying to turn his thoughts off while telling himself that "slips" and "falling off the wagon" are what addicts do. The last few days, I've been repeating these things whenever the conversation comes up. I don't think I'm pushing too hard. I'm not telling him what to do, how to do it. I'm just telling him there are things (such as x,y & z) that you could be doing, that other people do. I've told him what he is doing isn't enough to show me he's serious, and that I'm not willing to wait around 2 years to see if he's "real" this time, which is what it seems like he expects everytime he says "I just need time, give me time". I've given you 6 years dammit! How much more f'in time do you want?!?

So, I pretty much told him, fine. You want to quit because you can't handle the pressure of "recovery" as you see it, money issues, your marriage issues, family issues, etc...so be it. But do not blame me. You are making a choice. You are making the choice to not honor me by being honest. You are making the choice to not stop those thoughts dead in thier tracks (I'm sorry, but everyother day sobriety isn't good enough for me.) You are making the choice to continue lying. You are making the choice to quit recovery (or at least saying you want to..which I could understand wanting to, if just looking at how hard it's going to be, and being intimidated, but I can't see actually quitting). so, those are your choices. These are mine. I'm choosing to believe you are not serious about this recovery. I'm choosing to believe you are not going to stop lying to me. I'm choosing to believe you will continue letting these thoughts (and maybe other things) destroy you & us. And, because you couldn't keep our "agreement", I'm choosing for you to leave our bedroom, for now, and possibly forever, I don't know.

I already know that I set us up for this. I mean, I expected him to be honest, when he's never shown himself to be honest before. I keep struggling with this..not expecting different results from the "same old, same old."

So, I ask you guys..
Am I wrong in expecting him to be 100% honest with me about everything from *this point* (being last week) on?
Am I being unreasonable to think that he could be trying harder, that he isn't showing a "real" recovery effort? Or should one hour a week spent be enough for me?
Is it wrong that I made him move out of our bedroom? Is it wrong if I don't know if I'll ever let him come back? I feel bad, but then again I don't.

ETA: I'm just going to link the thread...I need to come back to it at a later time I think... I'm starting to get clouded thinking, anger & sadness mixed in.

lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=Partners&action=display&thread=1191848374

[isopeace]

I think I'm angry because I get it, but don't "get it"...I'm jealous of those of you who do, who have come to a place where they can "let go", whatever that means to them. I'm sad because I still feel like letting go means losing him, us, everything. I'm frustrated because I thought that writing journaling, reading, etc would "help"...and I don't think it is. Its making me feel less capable. I can see where I want to be, I can taste it, smell the sweet aroma of peace...I know what I want my life to be, how I want me to be, what I need out of a marraige, what I want to give in return. I keep coming up with what seems to me great ideas, plans & thoughts, and then...nothing...something between the creation & the realization keeps disconnecting. I *know* where I want to be emotionally, physically, mentally....but I can.not.seem.to.get.there...and I feel like I'm stopping myself. But I can't figure out how, why or how to quit stopping myself.

Is it possible to be miserable, depressed and just generally barely existing in life, and yet resist everything you say you want, everything that you KNOW will pull you out of the pit you are in and set you free?
I feel like my brain keeps circling the same questions, the same answers, the same problems, the same resolutions, and yet can't land on anything. Like I'm afraid to just take the leap and decide already. But what am I deciding?
I can tell you exactly what I want out of my life. But it seems an impossible dream, not achievable. I know exactly how I'd like to look,what it would take to make me happy, what I want the picture of my children's lives to look like. I know what I believe in, rights & wrongs.
So why can't I get there? Why do I always second guess my feelings? Why do I feel like I'm lying to myself? Why can't I find the motivation to make the changes I want to make. Becuase I really DO want them..I need most of them. But I just can't do it. I don't have the energy. That sounds so pathetic. "I'm too tired to not eat this. I'm too worn out to set boundaries for my children and enforce them. I don't have enough energy to do anything that needs to be done. I don't have the motivation to be compassionate today." In reality, it sounds like I'm selfish, lazy & whining. It sounds like I'm wishy-washy about what I want. It sounds like I'm crying wolf.
If I were someone that knew me, I'd say, man, she needs help. She obviously has issues. She's a cry-baby that isn't willing to do what she needs to do to get what she says she wants. She's spineless and doesn't trust herself, or anyone else. She can't love, she can't believe in people. She can't be bothered to feel pain for someone, to own thier hurt and help them heal. She's angry, depressed & lashes out at others becuase she can't face reality. She hides from things that hurt her instead of facing them to eliminate the hold they have. She won't enforce what she claims she believes.

I could go on and on, but I suppose that once again, this would be just another way I self-defeat. Good job Jenn...tell yourself all the bad things you feel...that will go a long way towards making yourself feel better, won't it? But see, that's what i'm good at....being sad, being angry, being distant. It's not a good place to be..yeah, there's better pastures somewhere..but it's home to me.

I don't want to let go of my marraige, but I can not trust him. I can not believe he's for real this time. And ya know what's sad? Maybe he is. Maybe he really wants this, and he just doesn't know how to do it. Maybe by me saying, that's it, I've had it, I'm throwing him back into a place where he's not going to be strong enough to fight this. Maybe I should be compassionate for him. I feel like I should..but dammit, I just can't bring myself to feel that way most of the time. Yeah, there's times my heart aches for him, for what I can only imagine he's going through. But most of the time, I do not care. I struggle with even having compassion for him when he gets a cold, let alone when he's ripping my heart out. The voice in my mind says, does he care about you? Has he ever cared about you? Does he have compassion for you? No? Then the hell with him..take care of yourself. I want him to make ME feel better. Is this selfish? Yes. I should be letting him do this for him. I should be letting him find his own way. But I'm terrified of that. What if he doesn't? What if he gets lost? And why should I keep giving him time to find the way when he's had time, had chances? What if he lets me down again? Ahh..there I go again, worrying about me, angry that I have to take a backseat, yet again...

Back to the beginning...I'm standing in my own way. I can't let go, I can't move on, I can't make my life better until I figure out HOW I'm sabatoging myself, WHY and how to stop it.

And the little voice says, you can't stop it. Stop telling yourself that you are in your own way...all this is normal. This is how everyone is...just as messed up as you. Accept it. Your life will never change. You will be stuck in this marraige with this man who may or may not love you, may or may not change. You will never change becuase you can't. You are who you are. End of story. You've already ruined your shot at happiness. Deal with it.

And then I say..but I'm in control of what I do, right? So why the hell can't I make myself be better? Why can't I put the things I want into action, make them reality? Why am I so afraid? What am I afraid of? When will I hit the bottom of the pit & decide that I'm worth climbing out?

And that's the point where I start to understand where H is. I think he wants to change, in some deep down part of his being, he hates what he is, what he does. but I think he feels the same as I do...it's too hard, what if I can't? why should I bother if she doesn't appreciate me anyway? why am I hurting myself by continueing something I hate? Why can't I find motivation to change?

So, if I say he's an addict, and these thoughts are his (they might noe be, but i imagine they are)...what does that make me? Addicted to misery? Addicted to non-decision? Addicted to feeling the ways I feel?

Man..this is so screwed up.

[Mayberry]

(HUGS)

You write, "Is it possible to be miserable, depressed and just generally barely existing in life, and yet resist everything you say you want, everything that you KNOW will pull you out of the pit you are in and set you free? I feel like my brain keeps circling the same questions, the same answers, the same problems, the same resolutions, and yet can't land on anything. Like I'm afraid to just take the leap and decide already. But what am I deciding?"

I think the answer (from my experience) to the first question is yes. And I think the "circling" you describe is symptomatic of (at least my experience) of depression. Whether that's situational (because of what's going on) or a more deep-seated depression...I don't know.

There's as fair amount of self-help that can be done with depression. It sounds to me like you've got a lot inside and it's very difficult to know "where to start" when one is depressed and sad and grieving (BTW: you don't sound like a crybaby at ALL to me; you sound like a lady who's depressed).

Seeing a therapist might jumpstart the process of clawing your way out of the pit for you?

I am getting a lot out of "Adult Children of Abusive Parents: A Healing Program for Those Who Have Been Physically, Sexually or Emotionally Abused" by Steven Farmer. Over 1/2 the book is actual healing exercises and I think they are specific enough to be helpful to most people.

I wrote this on saddkatt's journal recently. I am wondering if any of this reflection may be useful to you. My thoughts are with you, dear. Jinn

****

May I offer a (long) word that may or may not be helpful to you? Sometimes, when my burdens seem overwhelming (and they have before and they are, actually, feeling that way now), it has helped me to draw up a concrete list of every-blessed-thing that is weighing me down. I then pick one or two things on the list (generally, because I'm lazy, the ones that seem easiest to tackle). Each day, I start my day with a "to do" list that in some way address some *part* of the problem and I make sure I do at least one thing on the list. One thing, crossed off the list, puts me one step closer to sanity (and yes, because I'm German, I actually write the list in black and cross off whatever blessed thing I got done in red. It may be one thing among twelve things, but it is CROSSED off). After daily practice, my personal momentum builds. I (often unwillingly) drag myself out of the abyss of depression and find myself in a better internal space.

Some days, these lists come down to maintenance behavior. Making the bed (crossed off!), a load of laundry (crossed off!), getting to work (crossed off!). As I gain the momentum, I try to introduce balance to my personal equation: visiting with a friend, returning an email to family, working on one of the "overwhelming" problems in my life (one step at a time). My personal balance equation: connecting with others, doing my work in the world, maintaining a liveable space at home, etc. The most important thing for me has been to *make* the blessed list, and cross what I can (or will) off of it and to go to bed without self-blame for what I didn't cross off the list. Rise, make a new list, have another day. Some things carry over to the new list, some I discard and return to much later (or, sometimes, never).

I developed this tactic when my own depression reached the point where I was being swallowed alive by stasis. I. Could. Not. Move. Any. More. It's a sort of behavioral therapy for me, and I offer it to you in the hope that it may prove helpful. Despite my jokes about being German, I can speak to my own experience only--when I *make* myself do a "list", my days do not feel so adrift and they do not feel as vulnerable to inviting hopelessness. I *don't* know if it would work for you, but it *might* be a technique to try for a week and see how it lands? I "do" my list in a spiral notebook and I start each day "fresh"--self-blame for "not doing yesterday's list enough" is strictly not allowed.