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Post by findingjoy on Oct 11, 2006 8:46:49 GMT -5
"Because sexaholics use passions and courtship emotions as bait. That's why I enjoy the no power of distance."
I'm learning so much from your journal and other posts, Victoria. I can rarely think of anything to add, but I'm so encouraged by it. I wanted you to know that.
Having said that, him wanting to make a bunch of decisions right now is so not a good idea. No major decisions for the first year in recovery, right? He may feel much relief in sobriety and having a support system, but he's no way near recovered. Carnes figures the initial difficult part of recovery is about 3 years. So, his frame of mind may be encouraging, but it's early days. His consistent application of recovery tools hasn't been tested by time. Not even close.
Take all the time you can, darlin. One of the things I learned early on in this mess was that I had primarily made decisions either based on emotion or logic before this. I would either make a decision based on logic, without even asking myself how I felt about it, or I would make a highly emotional decision with no thought to the logic or facts of the situation. So, I now tell myself that with any major decision, I need to think it through and feel it through. That means I take much more time in coming to major decisions. I have much more faith in my choices now. I will still make mistakes, but I don't endlessly question my deicisions.
The other thing I do is try to keep a couple very close, trusted friends always aware of the significant things going on in my life. They call me on stuff and just knowing I *have to* run everything by them, helps me slow down as well.
Just take your time. Lots of it. I'm so sorry you're going through this, though. You sound so much like me awhile ago.
fj
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Post by LookingUp on Oct 11, 2006 11:08:54 GMT -5
Have you been able to tell him that in a way he understands? Does he know he's on a thin thread or is he discounting it?
I've often heard that early recovery is as selfish as their addiction; this appears so in your case. That really sucks and must be really difficult. You want your husband back and now he's still unavailable and playing a new set of games. Could you go to one counseling appointment with him to discuss his inability to hear you?
I can sooooooo relate to that. One of my "recovery plan" points is something like I get a week to decide - he so often railroads me into trying to make a quick decision so we can put issues behind that I don't have time to really think it through or pre-discover what the pitfalls will be. I usually don't need the week, but just knowing that I can give myself time to feel comfortable with the decision helps me a lot to not fear when we try to negotiate.
The shopping thing - I know why it's such a trigger. I feel that way even walking in the curtain section that's near the lingerie section. Makes me want to cry and wish I didn't have all the triggers to have to sooth and justify to maintain my calm.
LookingUp
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Post by victoria on Nov 15, 2006 23:23:06 GMT -5
Well,
I'm back to start an assignment that my sponsor gave to me.
How did I get here? She asked me to to read the Sanon Problem and then answer that question.
I know that I am very wrapped up in him. Everybody knows that. That still doesn't answer the question.
All I can think of is that I keep staying here. I thought that I was independent, and self confident, and God centered and 'right with the world' when I met him. After I met him and became involved, when I saw it was time to go, I didn't.
How would it look that I left him when he just found out that his brother is dying? And part of me didn't want to leave him, I wanted to know why he was shutting me out. He has hinted at it since then, but he hasn't told me what happened, but acknowledges something did. Because he was so open and loving and he turned on a dime. I took it as a challenge. I made it about me.
I don't want to write anymore.
"No matter how we tried to struggle against it, deny it or minimize its effects, the failure of our efforts to cope with sexaholism brought us to the point of despair. This is what is meant when we say in the First Step, ""Our lives had become unmanageable."" - p. 118, Working the S Anon Program
"The failure of my efforts to cope"..........................I can accept that much easier than 'admitting I was powerless'. With the latter I feel like I'm a fish wife, a shrew, a lady walking around carrying a bread roller with curlers in my hair and a cigarette hanging out of my mouth, looking for my boyfriend, to catch him in the act and 'get him'.
The former shows me how sick I have become and removes the shame from the problem.
My efforts to cope became futile. My efforts to get help backfired. There have been some good intentioned people that I don't know that have extended themselves to me, and it was very touching, it gave me strength to try people that I knew. I'm not willing to ask unsafe people that I know to help me anymore. To ask one sick person to help me get away from another sick person at this point isn't healthy for me. My options were limited before, and I don't want to stick my neck out again. I feel I don't have enough 'me' strength to be vulnerable again.
I'm desperate, and this is where I am, and this is where I'm starting my steps from. My bf is working a program, and I am working mine. I feel I don't have anywhere to go, and I'm tired of moving. That will be good enough for now.
I ask myself if I'm still trying to cope and still have him in my life by joining a 12step group.
My present situation may have got me here, but I'm staying in a 12step group for me. I have learned so much about my past and my upbringing. I have to be in a support group for my sanity. I really cannot handle this by myself. There is something about being in a room of people that I can relate to. I feel validated and safe with my feelings.
But anyway, where does codependency end and healing begin? How can I live with someone who has harmed me so much and still love him? I feel they go hand in hand for a while in the beginning. How can it be differentiated when I may do the same action for two different motives? I don't know, but my experience has been if I try kindness and loving detachment, I have more energy to take care of myself, to go and get a job, to go to meetings, to go out of the house. To call my friends and re-establish contact. The results have been wonderful.
The reactions I have gotten have been negative, I'm having to accept that without being a martyr. Now is not the time to mount the cross. It would just be my pride in disguise.
That's it!
Q. #1: "If only ______ were different, my life would be better" Have I tried to change these situations or people? what was the result?
I often feel that if I hadn't been injured at work, I wouldn't be in this mess. I feel that I would have had enough confidence to say no, I don't want to be involved with this man. I tried to control it by pretending that it wasn't that bad, that if I just went with the flow and ignored it, it would get better in time. That didn't work, I was injured, period. I was incapacitated for an extended length of time. I also feel that if my sponsor had been more helpful, I would have felt safer. This woman goes really out of her way to help lots of people, why couldn't she have 'gathered the wagons' when I needed help at home? I couldn't take care of myself, getting dressed was horrible, and her response was 'maybe you should get a cortisone shot'. Even my doctor didn't want to do that, he wanted me to rest. I was on modified duty. Maybe she was just so overextended already, that she couldn't help me. I wish she could have told me that. I'm OK with it now, but it really really hurt when it happened. His friends influenced him quite a bit. I thought that if he didn't listen to them as much, we would be better off. He would be more attentive sooner, and he would see that I needed his help. His boss thought that all I needed was a cortisone shot also. Plus, he was the one that shared the most p*rn with my bf. I'm sure I interrupted the 'flow' of that relationship somehow. I still don't understand what part his female friends played in this, other than they flirted with him, and were very inappropriate. In a lot of this, in the beginning I tried to be objective, tactful, and open-minded, and patient when I explained how I felt about all of this. It was a new relationship, after all, and I appreciated my independence also. So, I tried to give it time. And I tried detaching. As time went on, on my part, there was a lot of crying, anger, isolation, screaming, sarcasm, childishness, fear and depression. The result was I felt like committing suicide. The result was I turned to my family, who are extremely toxic and basically dangerous for help. I felt that anybody who knew us that I asked for help would tell him and not help, get the gossip and not help, or tell me, well, we told you so, and not help. I felt that if I told anybody I knew, they would say, he's too dangerous and not help, or, 'we don't think you're sober' and not help, or we told you so, and not help. One person let me stay with her for a while and when I left, she gave me her opinion, and that really messed with me. She apologized later, but I said it didn't bother me, but it did. I just shut down, because I had never gave her an opinion of what I thought she should do, even when I strongly disagreed with it. The next two people I tried to change were him and I. I will write about that later.
I tried to change him by - reasoning, talking, meditating, praying, writing, screaming, scolding, crying, manipulating, threatening, plotting, and babysitting the computer. Did it work? no, it made things worse. It divided us even more and pretty soon I felt like killing myself. I felt like it was never going to end. That there was no hope.
I tried to change me by accepting him and expecting him to get it in his own time. I tried to wait it out, that his love for me would overcome the need for porn and his ex-wife. I pretended that 'everyone does it'. I tried to bargain with myself to accept him and his active addiction and me with my program. I tried to convince myself that I was 'too conceited', to believe that I had to come down to earth and see how men really were. I tried to lose weight, but I already was a size eight, so that wasn't it, so I tried to be sexier, I tried to convince myself that his female friends were not flirting with him, and that he wasn't making their friendship more important than our relationship. I tried boundaries, and that didn't work. I denied it really hurt and was damaging to my spirit. I denied that he was dishonest with me. I tried prayer and meditation, I wondered what was wrong with me. None of it worked. I joined a website that helped tremendously, but it wasn't a long standing solution. I gave up and left, but then he presented himself that he was a changing man. Sanon is the thing that worked. Getting away for a while and getting some perspective worked.
I tried to opt out of going to functions where these acting out friends were and that didn't work a lot of the time. I tried to ignore the problem and that didn't work.
Q. #2: For what behaviors of others have I felt responsible?
I felt responsible for my bf's in social situations, I have felt responsible for all of his feelings - anger, depression, financial distress, happiness. I wasn't like this in the beginning, I detached and allowed him the dignity of his own decisions. Then he would pout and withdraw any attention, so I would feel like I wasn't being attentive enough. I felt that I wasn't doing something right with him, so I tried to be sexier and smarter and more patient. I feel responsible for my parents, my son, my sibs, my friends. Their feelings, I felt that if I was there, I had something to do with it. Pretty crazy, huh? I felt responsible for my son's behavior in the past, and that was a huge one to forgive myself for. I guess this one isn't a big deal I feel, because I have worked through so much in Al-Anon already.
Q. #3: What have been the consequences in my life (emotional, physical, mental, sexual, spiritual, social, occupational, financial) of my attempts to control or deny sexaholism?
emotional - Felt like dying. I felt no self esteem, that I was completely alone. I almost felt inhuman in my own body. Like I gave me up. Is this the best that I was worth? I had just fallen in love with him when I found out, I didn't want to see there was a problem. If he had an addiction, I didn't want to admit it because I knew that addictions always came first-period. I didn't want to admit that I couldn't conquer this and change him. I got angry in December of last year and then I started coming back from desperation.
Physical - Here's the hard one. I have exposed my self to someone with an incurable STD. I have gained back part of the weight that I had maintained because I eat when I'm in pain. I didn't let my shoulder heal correctly. I have trouble sleeping frequently.
Mental - So much mental anguish, so much torment and 'if only's'. I can't think straight. I feel paranoid. Denial takes up so much room and constant tending, that there is not room for anything else. No free space to allow for any other activity other than codependency. I bounce back and for th between trying to forget and remembering everything a little bit of a time. Something inside of me won't let me deny the whole package, so it's been a battle.
Sexual - I'm back to operating, like I did years ago. Not participating, but operating. It was as if I was a prostitute, that I was their to service him, no interaction. I'm an object, it's very hurtful, so I don't participate as much as I used to, when I was denying there was a problem. Now I try to do it when I want to enjoy ourselves. It's a lot better, but it's still impersonal in a lot of ways.
Spiritual - What God? I had just come to a place before I involved myself with this man that I felt finally, so comfortable in my own skin. And it was all ok. Whatever had happened had become a blessing to be thankful for. My tag line in meetings was "If everything hadn't happened exactly like it happened, I wouldn't be who I am today". I saw others that were angry as people that needed to be listened to, not to let myself be victimized anymore, but to be available if appropriate. And not for men, but for women, mostly. There are men to listen to other men. Hope that makes sense. So, what's it like now? I have prayed and have felt many times that my HP was the only thing that could understand me. And love me. Unconditionally. Many times I have been so angry with my HP that 'he let me' get involved with a man that could do this to me. I can't blame God for what another human being has done. Regardless if it's the PA or myself. I have felt suicidal through a lot of this, and that's been the saving grace, is knowing that I can pray and I don't know if I'm listened to, but I don't act on my thoughts and feelings. So, I'm grateful that my HP has saved my life. I want to say that I'm grateful that this has happened to me because of the relationship strengthened by p***addiction, but somehow, I still equate that with approval of the addict. Guess I'm not recovered yet. I know my relationship with my HP has become stronger and more 'hands on' when I joined a 12step program, and started utilizing the suggestions. Muchly......
Social - I have cut myself from my friends because of shame and embarrassment and ego. "How could Victoria stay with a guy like that?" I see it in their eyes and some of them have even said as much. Our friends know this guy acts like an a**hole. This addiction has also put us in some precarious positions, socially. Usually with women that he acts out with, and I have had to endure from very embarrassing humiliating and shameful occurrences. I have also been exposed to the other p*** addicts that he hangs around with, and that has been horrible. It feels like you are exposed in a completely different way, only my PA knows, and is watching, and approves. His family doesn't know the details, his daughter was raised with it, and it's just accepted on her level. So, I have had to pretend almost all of the time before disclosure that everything was 'fine' and I was torn in half. I felt like a zombie. I couldn't believe that I was accepting all of this, and yet, I couldn't understand why if he had other addictions, why he just deal with this one.
Occupational - I haven't been able to work, because along with the addiction, he calls quite often during the day. That was okay before I found out, but after, when I realized he usually Called me after some acting out. I couldn't work. I could not conduct myself in a professional manner. I quit my job due to this and an injury, and I couldn't cope with everything. I've lost about two years wages. I have no faith in myself, and what I have has been because of working a program and trying to stay out of his business, or just accepting that he will be doing whatever it is he needs to do, but I still have to earn a living, and trust in God.
Financial - I have lost about two years wages, he has gone through quite a bit of money denying and trying to withdraw from p*** by going on trips where he is away from the computer. He has loans out that I don't know exactly the amounts, but he is in dire straits. If he doesn't keep working, he will lose everything. I know that most of the world is like that, but he was not in that position before this started. He always found someone to take care of him, and I won't, and can't. So he has had to take care of it himself I think for the first time in such a big way. I know money is much more important to him and all of the toys that go along with it. This is the legacy he is bringing to the table and I go without a lot of the time, because I don't ask for anything, because I feel guilty that I somehow put us here. I have never paid him rent, but I have paid him back for things along the way. He has supported me, and I feel he 'owes me' and I feel slimy when way that, but this is how I get recovered, right? Slime and all.............
Q#3 - A) What are the themes and patterns of my attempts to control or deny?
I punish him by not working, by upsetting any flow of consistency that we have going, by saying little comments to remind him of what he really is, by trying to start fights, by not letting things go and questioning him, by snooping and thinking I have 'the goods' on him, by eating my way into oblivion, by saying it's okay to go to a place where the acting out old friends might be, and then screaming at him when he comes home, by saying 'just forget it', by idealizing suicide. I'm sure I will think of more as time goes by...............
B) What behaviors do I keep returning to, even though they keep producing the same unsatisfying result?
I have tried to leave, about four times. I believe what he says about it will be better, and I am changing and trying to do things different. And I come back, and when they don't, I punish him and scream at him and threaten him and then feel ashamed and embarrassed and I want to die again. And then I pray and then I go back into denial and shame myself for not being 'tough enough' to ignore it. And I dream of the day that I can get away from him and have my old life back. And then I know I love him ?!?!?! and I try to find a way to make it work. I usually pretend that what he says or does doesn't hurt me and I have just become a shell of who I used to be. I have also tried to blame my sponsor for deciding to not sponsor me when I came back to him the first time. She told me that she intended to sponsor me for a long time, regardless of who I was involved with. She changed her mind. It hurt tremendously and I felt so alone for so long, that I didn't feel worthy to go back to my home group and ask for help. I found out later that she did talk to a few people, and it confirmed that I was alone, that I didn't have any resources (friendship wise). I felt like I was being told that I made my bed, now lie in it. I even started talking to my family again, and that wasn't in my plans at all. I wanted to ask them for help as a last last last resort. I did, and they are not emotionally available to handle supporting someone right now. I snoop, thinking that if I find out, I wont be hurt, because I will have already know. But if I have to snoop to find out, then I already have been hurt. Right?
C) Where did I learn these behaviors?
I read this and it confirms what I have known for a while now. This relationship is an exact replica of growing up with my family. I am repeating the relationship I had with my mother. This is also the 5th relationship where my mate has had some kind of issue with strippers, dancers, magazines, movies. I learned these behaviors in order to survive living at home until I could leave, except I kept finding my mother again. Ick Ick Ick Ick.
D) What are the situations or behaviors in others that tend to provoke my predictable reactions?
The subject has to be emotionally unavailable - due to an addiction of some sort. Abusive on all levels usually is attractive to me. Dishonesty with a promise to not do it anymore is a turn on. Validation that I have been hurt once again is victory. Of course, I have to be in a needy position of fear, loneliness, financial insecurity. Misogynistic characteristics are prevalent. Conceit, tall, glasses, talking, walking, breathing and mean are a plus. Usually, someone that has shown me their absolute best, and promises me that they are changing. That they really are sincere, and then hit me with a whammy. Someone who knows how to master my low self esteem (selfishness) to their bidding. I know this because I had just worked on myself steadily for two years and faced everything that had ever been an issue with me. I guess that's where part of the next sentence comes in that I wrote at the beginning of this assignment two months ago:
"I believe I chose to become enmeshed with him because of pride, financial dependence and loneliness. I hadn't had a bf in eight years. I was injured in my shoulder and I was going to lose my apartment, and most important, I didn't want to admit that my sponsor was right. I didn't want to ask for help because I didn't want to hear, I told you so, or even worse, no. I feel so slimy saying that, but this is the feeling that keeps coming up around this when I ask myself why didn't I just walk away?"
That's enough for now, will be back later...............
Am back
Q#5, part A) what does it mean for me to be powerless over sexoholism? I accept that he is a liar, a cheat, and a thief. It means knowing probably that he might not do something that he has committed to and accepting it. It means knowing that my whole life with him is based on dishonesty. It means knowing that he will risk my health and safety to fulfill his needs. It means being aware that there is nothing that I can do to make him stop. It means knowing that I am living with a person who will never have a consciousce because he is under the influence of a drug. It means accepting that he loves me, but that love has nothing to do with addiction. B) By admitting my powerlessness, what do I surrender? My power. MY manipulation, my denial. I surrender my anger. I surrender martyrdom, hurt, suffering. I surrender believing my version of what I'm thinking. I surrender the fantasy that he will love me enough to stop. I surrender punishing him for not sobering up for me. I surrender me blaming him for me being "fooled". I surrender his recovery also. He will or will not. That's it. C) What do I have the power to change? Nothing. regarding him and his addiction. I can change how I treat him, how I talk to him. I can change my selfesteem, my recovery, my happiness, my serenity. I can change my relationship with my HP. I can change my potential, I can change how I react to this. I hope I can change my expectations of him and myself. I got involved with a person that is addicted to lust. That doesn't make me a bad person. Or him either. Q#6 part A) Have I avoided focusing on my own needs or conduct by placing my focus on the sexaholism of someone else? Yes B) What needs of my own have I ignored? My weight, sobriety, health, sanity, peace of mind, education, job, family, friends, integrity, fun, bills. God this hurts. C) What personal behavior for me is difficult to acknowledge? I sleep with a man that has --- and I don't care. I would rather stay in this than be willing to believe in myself or GoD. That I have given up everything I have worked so long for. That even after writing all of this, I would probably want to find some way to stay. That I actually enjoy the fact that he is like this, because I have someone to blame. Before I met him, I was very lonely and had just been 'let down' by the person I really liked. I hate rejection, and my bf doesn't reject me. He always loves me to be with him, except when he's using and lying. Which is all the time, (expletive) me. I hate this. Living through this has shown me that I will not speakup for myself, even when my life is at stake. I would rather take you emotional hostage than be vulnerably honest with you and risk rejection. This has come up repeatedly for me. I have tried, and I have had many setbacks with honesty. I would rather not talk with anyone than be hurt.
will return again...
Q#7 part A) What is the history of my relationships with significant others? I've lived with seven men, one I was married to. I felt that if I lived with them, I was in a "committed relationship" and I couldn't be seen as a "loose" woman. After I sobered up, I became aware of how my actions affected others, and the pain I caused them and myself. So in 1999, I decided not to have any relationships with anyone until I felt better about myself. After 5 years and I began to date, learning along the way to "socially interview" men instead of falling into a relationship with them. Steve was the last one I dated, and I thought I really found a great guy. part B) As I look at these relationships, do any patterns become apparent? I always thought that I wasn't "good enough" until I was in a relationship. That I was more acceptable that way rether than being a single mom. I wanted to be with someone, and I would give up a lot to be in one. I never took the time to really get to know someone before they moved in or I became involved emotionally, and let my son get attached to them. Also, I wasn't honest with them, because I presented myself in a certain way, and then expect them to read my mind quite a bit to find out what I expected of them. And if they didn't get it right, there was hell to pay. Most of the men I lived with had an addiction of some sort. I also noticed that before I took a break, I ended up sounding a lot like my mother. That really scared me. I have had to forgive myself and my actions a lot. I had to go through counseling and working the steps in another program before I could see this. The dating I started was me being my authentic self and being honest with them and being honest with myself at the same time.
Q#8 part A) What would it mean for me to be "sober" in SAnon? It would mean that I implement the 12 steps and traditions in my life on a daily basis as much as possible. It would mean freedom, integrity, compassion, joy, love, and forgiveness. It would mean a consistent conscious choice to do what would be the highest good for any and all involved in any given situation. part B) What program tools can I use to maintain my sobriety? The Steps, the Traditions, prayer, meditation, literature, sponsorship, meetings, service.
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Post by victoria on Dec 4, 2006 11:32:28 GMT -5
Getting over a cold and I am so grateful for my health right now, to be able to get up and feel like the 2 bales of wet cotton that were behind my eyes is gone - priceless!!!!!!
So, ALL of my feelings for the past few days are now behind my eyes and in my heart, and it's just too much!!
So, I go to write, check my mail first, and there is a woman that sends 'funny' emails out and she sent one about s*x to both myself and my boyfriend. Great!! Just wonderful, he wont do anything about it, but I see his name and address in the "To:" line and I get really really disappointed. I'm better at letting things go now, but I will have to pray on this one for a while.
In the meantime, I can have more than one feeling at a time these days, I'm glad I got another sponsor, because the first one wont return my call. It did take me three weeks to call her, and it's only been four days since my message to her, but oh well. Let it go.
Al though I'm very happy with the results that we have reaped from a 12 step program, I'm not too excited with the gossip and control issues surrounding sponsorship and sharing being taken out of the meetings themselves.
I shared a couple of weeks ago in a meeting some deep feelings which were my feelings at the time. I got them out because I thought I was in a safe place. I got a phone call last week from someone who decided to share with her husband (who sponsors my boyfriend) what I said. What came back to me was that I was in a unsafe atmosphere, and she gave me tips on how to handle his anger, (My boyfriends anger, whom I've been living with for 18 months). She thought that her husband 'kind of' sponsored my boyfriend, and that she was just curious as to how I handled it when he had a problem. It just occurred to me that she was taking what I said beck to her husband. It's people like that that destroy 12step groups. It's an honor to be entrusted , a priveledge. It's the singleness of purpose that keeps 12step groups together.
On the other hand, people are people and they are imperfect, and gossip is gossip. And people love gossip. So, it's my mouth that I can control, and that's where my power lies in this situation. Thank God I can see that. And I am so sorry that this may affect my boyfriend inadverely.
Bye!!
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Post by victoria on Jan 25, 2007 23:33:24 GMT -5
PISSED!!!!!!
beyond belief!!! what the f*** did they think they would accomplish?
He's angry because I don't work. I get a job, he gets someone else hired there that is a whirlwind, and I have to deal with her directly on a daily basis.
When I walked into the situation, and then his medical stuff came up and I had to deal with that all night long. I called in sick the next day to work and he commented on that.
Guess what? he has no rights anymore to my life. he can either kick me out, or fly a kite.
i wonder how he would feel if I just didn't let him know that I am giving two weeks notice, and just let him find out from the woman that he sent to work with me. that takes to much effort, but I cannot get this out of my system. I am so angry!!!!! and hurt. and betrayed. and abandoned, and hopeless, and alone and small. I feel small. Unimportant.
I feel so bad I don't want to describe it. I want to find a reason why they did this that I can live with, but I don't see it right now.
Im making too big of a deal out of it. It represents everyitng in our relationship. Im a doormat.
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Post by victoria on Mar 3, 2007 13:16:51 GMT -5
OK, I'm finally able to write.....
a few other things I have been feeling/thinking:
regarding the whole codependency thing, I spent the weekend at a recovery convention and that word was flung around like it was nothing. And it was usually to describe behavior based on low self esteem. And it was usually attributed to a woman who stayed with a partner that was doing some kind of 'unsober behavior'. I saw the whole process completely from a different point of view. And the first thought that comes to mind is "one more time, an addict gets to exploit boundaries, now in the name of recovery", and I feel so much better about taking care of myself
Since I've been detaching so much lately, new behavior tactics are being used by PA. If I share my opinion now, the replies are more verbally abusive, which is emotionally abusive and the content is usually sexually abusive of what he says. And it has taken me awhile to admit that at the core of my heart/soul. It started with labels like blame-shifting and martyrdom, (especially after the job incident mentioned in a previous post). I wouldn't reply. Now it's shut up and even F-you a few times. When we were at the convention, a friend asked if I'd like to chair a meeting, that he really didn't know anything about me. I said yes, and when all of us went to breakfast, four times this friend of my PA asked me a question about me, PA would interrupt, and redirect the conversation to himself.
And the flirty girlfriends from way back were at the convention and I just left when my PA engaged with them. Made it easier for me. Then PA followed me and he interrupted that conversation also.
Whatever the cost, now is the time that I am admitting that I am powerless over his addiction and I see that he is going to 'recover' all over me if I let him. There is a LONG LONG road of recovery and HARD work in front of him. I don't have the strength nor the desire to let this bleed all over me. This isn't about me not being in my own recovery, or that I am a selfish woman, this is abuse. Plain and simple.
Right before went entered the convention, I asked him how his counseling went the night before. He said 'great, it was my last time, I wanted to quit last time, but the counselor wanted me to say goodbye to everyone, so I did that last night'. I didn't react emotionally, I did ask him if I understood correctly that he knew for a week that he was going to quit and he didn't say anything to me? He said he couldn't afford it. I let it go. But, that was one of the five agreements that he made with me when he started his recovery 5-6 months ago. He has now broken all of them.
Another thing is, and I don't know if I'm repeating myself, but this addiction fits in perfectly with recovery from other addictions. Because at this convention (not SA/PA related), there are speakers that share their 'testimony of recovery' at the level of 50-500 people in attendance to listen. Out of 8 speakers, 4 mentioned some kind of inappropriate s**ual behavior, and it was laughed at. I know that laughter is a form of identification, but it is a wonderful way for a SA/PA to hide in recovery and still appear to be intimate, vulnerable, honest, solution-oriented and ultimately, "working a program".
As if that truth wasn't painful enough, the next wave of clarity that I had told me that this will probably be as close and as intimate as my PA will be capable of for a long time, if it ever changes. I don't think that I can share of myself and accept that as enough for me to sustain love in a personal committed relationship. And that isn't betrayal to say that. I have needs and wants for my life. I'm not even bringing s*x into this, I'm talking about common decency, compassion and kindness. I do have the sneaking suspicion that if I wasn't his partner, he would be able to be a better friend to me. I believe that being in a relationship is overwhelming for a SA/PA.
That's enough for right now, I'll write more later/tomorrow. Hope everyone has a great weekend.
peace, v Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I think, after loss, life requires an act of reclaiming, you have to reject being overwhelmed. Life has to go on." - Keanu Reeves
which circle are you in today? victoria Senior Member
member is online
Ain't it just like a PA, ignoring personal boundaries, now in the name of 'recovery'?
Joined: Dec 2005 Gender: Female Posts: 295 Re: more feelings/thoughts from HRM...... « Reply #1 on Yesterday at 12:31pm »
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wanted to write about the gas-lighting that goes on with this disease also......
A) He told me he couldn't afford counseling. Than yesterday he mentions that he will just barely be able to make this house payment and only half of next months, and then he's broke. I didn't reply, due to the job situation that we went through last month. So, he mentions that the payment is 2100/month. Then I took the bait. I asked for clarification, because the last time that he said an amount was last year, and it was 1500. He said that because of the ARM, it has gone up. And that he had already mentioned it me before, but then says that "we are covered until the end of May. I'm speechless.
He doesn't mention this stuff, and it is unsettling to say the least. I feel like he never wants anything settled or consistent when things like this happened.
When we first started this relationship, and up until now, there have been two issues with finances. One, when I first moved in, I didn't have a big paycheck. He said, I'll have to make the payment anyway, so don't worry about it. The other is that I have disclosed my finances to him, from the beginning. He will not. I've seen how he has spent money, and I feel it's erratic and foolish. Plus, I pay for all my medical, auto, misc, clothing, expenses. I don't feel compelled to offer much more.
B) The communication is so skewed that it is very difficult to even coexist with it. The verbal abuse is now escalating like I mentioned before and I forgot to add a few other things. He's also added mean spirit comments like "you eat all day long", after we have had a big meal and he has started joking about the meal, and I join in. More BS.....
C) I mentioned before that we are not having s**ual relations and haven't had them for a while. It is so passive/aggressive between us, that I just don't want to partake anymore. What is the weird thing is that he never wants to cuddle, and his reason is that I'm too warm. A month ago he brought the dog into the bed-between us. So, I make the observation that he has been cuddling the dog for a month and it is covered with hair, what's the difference? And I do not get an answer, I'm told just never mind and go to sleep, it's late. I went and slept on the couch. I ignored him when he asked me this morning why I wasn't in bed with "them". Yes, he said "them".
I believe that I will be going to the couch for a while.
I believe that these are all examples of me not 'seeing the light' as it really is. I am slow, but I really see now that if I am to keep any sanity/dignity/humor about me, I really have to admit that this is just not going to work anymore.
If I look at this from the perspective of him having to become emotionally independent and face his fear of abandonment, some of this I can see as self-protecting behavior, but 97% of it is baaaaaaloneeeey! All i see is an addict that really does not want to apply himself. And no amount of love will see that through.
I feel like I keep standing up to get emotionally punched in the stomach. I don't see where there will be any acknowledgment of any pain inducing behavior and/or changes. He's not ready. I was warned by the addicts the last time that I left that his behavior will escalate when I leave and or change my behavior, and that is scary.
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Post by victoria on Mar 12, 2007 0:32:00 GMT -5
We have a friend that is dying as I write and I am so sad. I am glad that PA is helping him by sitting with him and being emotional support.
What's sad is that the dying friend has been such a strong shoulder for so many people, and right now is experiencing so much fear. He doesn't want to sleep, because he is afraid he will not wake up. He makes comments to his wife that are sarcastic and mean. This man that told so many people how to get a HP in their lives, is scared beyond belief right now. And unfortunately, because it's a private thing, nobody can get you to a God except yourself.
What's sad is that this man also has a PA and it was never acknowledged. He has been very upset that my PA has decided to do some recovery work about it. My PA's friend always thought that I was the problem, that I didn't mind my own business (he believed that my PA's computer was none of my business), that I was jealous (he consistently encouraged the flirty girlfriends to continue some kind of relationship with my PA), and that I was using my PA for financial reasons (he never knew that because of p0rnstubating, my PA lost most of his business). It goes without writing ?!?! that my PA didn't tell him the whole truth about anything. I still refuse to be in the same room as the flirty girlfriends, regardless of the situation, but I am kind and assertive about this, because of the hospice situation.
Because of all of this, he told my PA that he'd prefer it if I didn't accompany him to his home while he is dying. Before I became involved with this man, this friend that is dying was very kind to me. Never a flirt or aggressive, but kind. I met him 7 years ago, and we never called each other, or anything closer than acquaintances, I appreciated and will always be grateful for his kindness.
I found out about his PA and his control issues after I became closer to him through my PA. But he has helped many people, and that is priceless. I knew a lady that dated him quite a while ago, and she said that she didn't pursue it because he had control issues then. that was the only negative thing I heard about him up until this past two years.
No one's perfect, not by a long shot. I have the gift of seeing how PA has ripple effects and affects EVERYONE around us, no matter what. I also have the gift of keeping my big mouth shut about this man's issues with p0rn. In a lot of ways, it's none of my business, but I'm glad I know that he more about him than I thought I knew. It helps me with perspective.
Because as far as I know, my PA doesn't know. But I do know that my PA is glad that he could help. Because he told me that he hasn't been this close to his friend since I moved back in with him. Because my PA promised he wouldn't go to the meetings where the flirty girls were, and that has been impossible for him to keep. His friends have been down on him to do recovery his old way, and not be 'whipped' by me.
But then again, PA's lie to the death, and I'm sure there is more involved here than I know about.
I'm just sad that this person has to go thru so much pain, and suffering and fear. I'm sad that s3xaholism has interfered with a friendship. Thank god I can love him anyways.......
peace,
v
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Post by victoria on Mar 14, 2007 11:20:26 GMT -5
Well,
I found out this morning that my PA has decided to volunteer to help his friend more than he told me about. I'm going to sound real selfish here, so be it.
The friend that is dying of cancer refuses to go to the hospital. He wants the dignity of dying at home. He also cannot control his movements anymore. So he has called (his wife has called) three times so far this week to ask for help to move him back to the bed, chair, etc. I am not responsible for what happens because of this volunteering. What happens to the PA if his back goes out?
I'm on the outside, and I know this means alot to the PA to help his friend, I have to have faith that it will all work out, (because it always does) I wish that the PA would take care of himself and see what is happening from here.
PA's have no concept that all of their actions affect others. I know mine do also. I'm just angry that once again, there is drama where there could be serenity.
I don't know what's good for anybody.
I remember when I had quite a few people die within a few years of each other, and I got to observe other friends/family handle their grief. In many many different ways. One common thread I saw was creating drama and taking advantage of vulnerability for selfish reasons. I am just concerned that the PA is being exploited. He wasn't called for the longest time when this first started, now that it's convenient, he's being called. And I'm afraid that its going to be at his physical expense. Part of me says that because I cant control the situation, that's the real feeling of mine, fear. I'll sit with that and see what happens today.
Once again, this may sound selfish, but these are the feelings I'm having right now.
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Post by victoria on Mar 21, 2007 22:05:01 GMT -5
Let's see.....
We can't afford counseling., but we can afford to boat, or landscape, or shop.
It would be okay to talk to his frined inlieu of above, but "I forgot to ask him, I didn't think you were serious"
You get sick of my paranoia, please go to an anon program, but I love it when you call me to see what I'm doing during the day.
I will not go into what he said today about my period........
I cant take this anymore, it's driving me crazy......the lies, the distortion, the control, the cruelty,
f5ck this!!!
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Post by victoria on Mar 22, 2007 20:58:09 GMT -5
I posted a question about having his sponsor and wife counsel us and I withdrew the question, beings that I feel it would be a mistake. His sponsor is pretty controlling, and I think the best thing he would do for us is to refer us to a counselor. A healthy sponsor knows when to say I don't know, not jump in and when it would be unhealthy.
I'm really tired today, big fight last night and I am drained. Am going to call my sponsor in a few minutes, and I will probably write after that.
I am so grateful for this board, no one else has been able to understand me like this board. I hope I'm not personalizing it too much, but I just am really grateful tonight.
v
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Post by victoria on Mar 23, 2007 10:46:32 GMT -5
It was suggested that I write a letter to the friend that died. I will do it in a little while, I want to get some non cyber things done first.
I just need to check in for right now.
v
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Post by victoria on Mar 27, 2007 11:51:37 GMT -5
Dear _______
This letter is not starting off as a kind one. Although you did a lot of good for many people, I am angry with you. I don't appreciate the unsolicited advice you gave to the PA, I don't appreciate the opinion you carried about his p0rn addiction. If we live in the same house and we are supposedly partners, then I do have a right to know what he is doing, as he does me. The good ole boy mentality has to go, once you have to consider someone else long term. I think you understand that more now, than you did when you gave my bf all of your advice. I'm really upset with the idea that you used emotions to blackmail the PA into going to places that you know he made a commitment not to.
I do not understand everything in your and the PA's relationship. I really don't know how you felt about me. I'm discouraged by the situation that the PA was supposed to keep talking to women who you thought was acceptable rather than stick to the agreement the PA and I made. I also am aware of the fact that the PA lies ALL of the time, and you may have been my biggest silent cheerleader, maybe the PA exploited a lot of situations and blames it on his friends, I'm sure that had a lot to do with it.
I feel it was really poor taste to keep bringing up his ex wife, as if she was still there. From what I understand, you didn't care for her, but did you realize that when you kept bringing up a relationship that was supposed to be over for quite some time, it minimized me? I felt like I was transparent when you consistently brought her up. I hope you know now that it was hurtful. Were you trying to tell me that the PA was still wounded? I always thought you were pretty plain in your speak, that's why I couldn't understand why you did it.
I'm also mad at you because I believed in you, and I found out you were considerably hypocritical and selfish. I don't know if you divulged it to the PA or not, but when I found out you looked at p0rn extensively and you were acting the way you did around me and other women, I lost a lot of respect for you. You treated me different after I lost weight, and I believe you were unkind. I don't appreciate the way you gossiped about people, and I didn't appreciate it when you did it at my home.
As you can tell, I really need to let this go with you and God, for my own sake. I am so sorry that you are gone, I know in spirit you are not, and, I miss you. I will carry your good in my heart. I guess everybody falls from a pedestal sometime, so I'm leaving it here with you.
love, v
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Post by victoria on Apr 10, 2007 11:49:19 GMT -5
What to write? I read TT's entry on abuse and I am inspired to go more than ever to WEAVE and file and start counseling!! I don't feel alone and scared now. I have lost quite a few frineds and family over this and it has been alienating, and disappointing, and lonely. I was talking with a friend yesterday that I haven't seen in a while, and she asked me if I was working? I said no, (I didn't tell her the histroy behind this) and she replied, "Oh, it must be nice". No one that isn't involved intimately knows what is going on. I feel the only people that would understand are his exwives, and one of them not staying away has been part of the on going problem!! What a mess, I'm glad it's coming to an end. The anger that my life has to change because of him is deep. I wish he would go away, I guess you can't run off with a computer- hahahahahahaha!! There have been other points in my life where I have had to make unpopular decisions, and live with them without support, I guess this is another one of them. We went to the SAnon couples group this last week and it was ok, until he talked. He said that he hasn't had to talk for the last part of his life, he doesn't understand why he needs to start communicating now. Hi ssponsor and quite a few other people laughed. I didn't. Maybe I'm hyper sensitive, but it seems to me that since a lot of professionals agree that since this touches the soul, It is a hypersensitive situation by nature. Of course it isn't funny. Once again, I have the hackles on the back of my neck up, and it's time to trust my intuition. I don't feel this recovery situation that he is in, I believe is minimal. It might be the best that he can do, but it is minimal. Judging by what I've seen here at this site, it is definately immature.
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Post by victoria on Apr 19, 2007 22:46:41 GMT -5
went to weave and guess what? they demonstrated how all of your excuses are nothing but a smoke screen. i can't understand why I am so so so f'in mad at you!!!!!!!!
I think it's because the one reason why I have hung on and waited was the one thing that keeps victims believing in perpetrators: HOPE
At this point in my life you are an emmotional and verbal abuser to me. You have robbed me of my sense of security, any dreams for the future. I don't care that your in 'recovery'. I am admitting to myself that what you need to do for you is probably better done alone, instead of at my expense. You're recovering all over me. I lay boundaries down and you don't honor them. I ak for specific things not to be said to me anymore, and you explain to me why I need to have things said to me in a certainb way. You make unilateral decisions with money, time, commitments, friends, and you seldom, very seldom take me into consideration. If I say that I wasn't aware of what was going on, you explain that I forgot what you said. How f'in convenient for you.
It's always me misunderstanding you. You hardly ever take any responsibility for your words or actions. You always have someone to blame for your thoughts and actions and words.
I hate what has happened to me, and it is my responsibility to take care of myself.
I am very angry that I tried to convince myself that your s3xual abuse of me is part of an addiction and that I should somehow personalize it and take some kind of ownership of the situation. Are twelve steps going to take away the medical situations I have to face?
Remember the conversation we had about disclosure in a business partner? My point was if you are going inot business with someone, wouldn't you want to know how they have treated other business partnetrs? And what if you found out that your partner had stolen from his previous partners? Youre response was one of but if I had changed and not acted like that in a long time, shouldn;t I be judged on new behavior? And then I turned it around and asked you if I was using YOUR money in a business, and I knew that the partner was still ripping off people, would YOU still give me money to invest? You laughed and said that would be my problem.
Then you understood what I was getting at, because you said why are we talking about business anyway, this has nothing to do with our relationship. You know why I used money and business? Because you can relate to that easier than you can intimate things like feelings or boundaries, or compassion. You toad.
That is scary to me. I know that you are trying as hard as you want to, but the feeling part just doesn't come to you, does it? Your prejudice against anyone who isn't like you is tremendous. I understand shame, I understand fear. I had to face my own and find something out there that I could believe in. I don't know where you are with that, but I really believe that me staying is keeping you from that.
Plus, you're a bully, plain and simple. Your continous need to have power over everything in your life is suffocating me. I don't know where the line is between addiction and abuse, but it has been crossed, and it hurts, so so much.
I know the only part I can change is me, so what am I doing here expecting you to be different? Because if you take away the acting out, we still have all the emotional problems. The financial problems. The communication problems. The friendship problems.
God I feel better!!!!!!
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Post by victoria on Apr 21, 2007 11:17:19 GMT -5
I just read my last few posts and I am want to judge and edit everything, but these are me feelings. What I hear is someone who is taking the steps to get help, however falteringly, to take care of herself. What I hear is someone that needs safety and clarity.
I feel like a trapped animal, some days. A friend mentioned to me last year that "he is breaking me down his way, so he can build me back up his way".
Other than this board, weave is the only place that understands what is happening to me. People here have suggested that I am in an abusive situation, and strangely enough, now that I have gone to weave, for the last two days, he is apologizing and he is much softer when he talks, and he asks me my opinion on things. Something is going on. We'll see how long it lasts, because I don'[t believe it will last.
He has gone back to his meetings, he goes early, and comes back much happier. I suggested he go, because I am tired of him having all of the conditions met for another meeting for him to attend. And we have been striking out a lot when we go other places. And I really do not want to be seen with him very much anymore. One of the last times we went to a meeting, he patted me on the butt in front of his friends, and I froze.
I want so much for this to be different between us, but he isn't going to get 'sober' my way, he needs to do it his way for him, regardless of the partnership.
I really feel invisible when it comes to my needs and wants, (asking him to honor those) but it occurred to me last night, I do have a right to ask about what direction his recovery is taking and what action he is deciding on when it comes to changing his behavior, because it directly affects me. Don't I have a say in this? I really get the feeling that his sponsor does not know all of the facts, and I really believe that too much alcoholism is applied to this, s3xaholism is the priority here, I believe. He's not having s3x with a bottle, he is having it with me. I am not an object like a wine bottle, I am a person with feelings. I am the thing he is picking up and putting down, I have a right to be heard!!!!!! I have a say in how I am to be treated, and his sponsor doesn't know the particulars of me, I know the particulars of me.
When you say to me "don't give me that SAnon b-llsh-t", you're saying that I am not allowed to be taken into consideration. You're saying that you would prefer that I not be human, you want a two dimensional object to exist for you and not with you.
I didn't realize all of this would come out this morning, but here it is. I'll be back in a minute.
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