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Post by Mayberry on Jul 23, 2007 5:07:14 GMT -5
LookingUp: Thanks for sharing some of your take on "shop-aholism." This is an area where I have reflection to do. Mr. Mayberry has a much more "consuming" attitude than I have. I have felt it's an unhealthy area for him, but I also know that my preferences in this area are out-of-whack with most of the U.S.'s "take" on healthy relationship with "acquiring stuff" and "the importance of things." So I try to go easy on him. Perhaps, as I took from Whoami's remark, Mr. Mayberry and I have different approaches to the PROCESS of acquiring stuff: I'm more of a "figure out what you need and go get it and get it OVER with" person and he is more of a "enjoy thinking about the thing, figuring out where it's priced best, take time to enjoy the process of getting the thing" person? I don't know. But whatever our worlds are, they certainly collided a bit on this issue on Saturday. With the grace of God and love for each other, it was really not a huge deal, and the process did not, as it might have, ruin the giving of the gift. And for me, that's very important.
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Post by Mayberry on Jul 23, 2007 16:38:23 GMT -5
Re-examining my responses to the quiz I posted here a few days ago... These are the areas in which I feel particularly under threat. As I get ready to move into the Hearts in Healing Circle, I wanted to pause and take a look at the areas of my weakness. I think they could be summarized as: Thinking about partner's motives/concerned about his recovery, or non-recovery. Self-destructive behavior in myself: smoking. Sexual disengagement. Tendency toward crisis-mode. Distrust in my feelings. I am not ready to stop smoking, though I feel more urges toward that right now. However, I'm also aware of how much of a struggle it is for me right now to find focus, how deliberate I have to be in my thoughts and speech, and I'm not ready to add to that the irritability that I know will come with quitting cigarettes. That said, I am not abandoning this area in my life. I am not putting it on the front burner. My smoking is one of the few areas in my life that is INCREDIBLY not-in-harmony with the rest of the way I live my life. I want to bring my entire life into harmony. But this is not one I'm ready to tackle. I think (outside of the over-arching goal of BALANCE, which my journal here helps me explore), I want very much to work on: 1. Being in good harmony with Mr. Mayberry's approach (or, if it comes to that, non-approach) to dealing with sobriety and recovery from his PA. Perhaps a simpler way to phrase this is "allowing Mr. Mayberry his own recovery" and keeping close guard over my urges to "do it for him." 2. Being particularly aware of triggers that send me into crisis mode and dealing with them in a healthy manner. I wrote in my journal about refusing to play the "hero" and confessed my tendency to do just that. It gives me a high that I must be very careful about. It also is, as I wrote, inherently a big fat lie: I am not a hero, and when playing the hero, I glorify myself and hurt the growth of those around me. To support goal #1: I am going to actively read on this subject and explore (through writing, conversation here, and action steps in my "real world"). To support goal #2: I am going to hold myself accountable to the "crises" of the day, and faithfully record my responses to them. When those responses are good, I will allow myself to feel good about that. When my responses are unhealthy, I will confess it here, I will confess it to God, I will confess it to those effected by my unhealthy actions. I will formulate a "what I should have done" statement, and I will carry that forward as a tool to help me in the next "tight spot." I will not wallow in my unhealthy responses, but deal with them as I would any other problem: naming the problem, understanding what led me to "slip" and determining what might help me not slip in the future.
I had a very trying day at work. I got a lot done, but with much distraction. I felt unsatisfied and not as productive as I know I can be but failed to be. The distractions were, largely, internal and not external. Afterward, I took Little Berry for school shoe shopping, which was trying. Both in terms of my choking down reactions to her consumerism (she was shopping for names, not for comfort or looks) and in terms of the physical environment (shops stress me out). Still, we survived the experience okay with each other. I felt annoyance with her lack of a thank you for the three new pair of shoes. As we were going to the Salvation Army to drop off a donation of books, I made a verbal mistake and called the car I was driving by the wrong model, corrected myself, and she mocked me after I had corrected myself. "Oh, it's a Toyota now? That's odd, I didn't know this was a Toyota." Quite honestly, I felt like screaming at her. Instead, I got out of the car, saying, in a whiny, nasty voice the very words she'd said to me. It cut her to the quick. It was a mean, nasty thing to do, and I did it. When I got back in the car, I said, "Well, I seem to have THAT out of my system. I don't like it when you correct me, and it hurt my feelings that you corrected me after I'd corrected myself." She has given me the silent treatment ever since. Agggghhhh. (insert a break here) I just got up and went in to Little Berry and named what I did, what triggered me, and how wrong it was. I asked for her forgiveness. She gave it. She apologized for mocking me. I accepted. I told her that this was one of my "buttons" and I told her what I planned to do next time it happened (she does this a lot, which is, perhaps, why it is a "button").
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Post by Mayberry on Jul 24, 2007 4:39:11 GMT -5
Well, things went well after my last post. Little Berry and I were drawn closer after our chat and she was very upbeat and sought me out and we interacted lightly and with laughter, and had fun prepping dinner with Mr. Mayberry. We had a lovely, fairly effortless meal: tomatoes (REAL ONES) and Roma green beans (REAL ONES) and cukes (REAL ONES) and corn on the cob (REAL ONES) with a little piece of marinated steak that Mr. Mayberry grilled. It felt fresh and balanced (the meal and the evening).
I have several things I "must do" before the day gets much further away from me. So off I go.
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Post by Mayberry on Jul 25, 2007 6:04:08 GMT -5
I had a surprisingly focused day at work yesterday and dealt calmly with small glitches in the child care arrangement that Mr. Mayberry made for Little Berry. None of the glitches tempted me to "hero" mode and I was glad that Mr. Mayberry's plan worked out. We spent entire evening together...it's our last evening together as a family for a couple of weeks...Little Berry goes back to her mother's house this evening for a bit to get ready for school. Sixth grade. My goodness. What trip THAT will be! We went out to dinner and then a stroll along the river. We were all dressed up a bit, and spent the time waiting for dinner exchanging "my great memory from this summer" was....Little Berry dropped her glasses (what were they doing off her face in the first place?). A passing teen saw them before we got back to where she'd left/dropped them and threw them into a fountain...they were uninjured (this was great, as Little Berry had left her other glasses "out and about" last week at camp, where they got stepped on and ruined). I think I managed the glasses-recovery incident without causing major feelings of guilt in the Little Berry and without minimizing the close-call she'd had in being glasses-less. (She's pretty much blind as a bat.)
Random moment: Mr. Mayberry actually expressed that he'd miss Little Berry. I think this is important. One of the family dynamics is that Mrs. Ex-Berry is a pretty fragile person, and does not hesitate to (IMHO) overwhelm Little Berry with "Oh, I miss you SO much" at the slightest chance. She also doesn't hide any depression she is feeling and Little Berry tends to hang up the phone (when I encourage her to touch base with her mother) either worried about Mom or in a "I miss Mom so much." That dynamic baffled me for a while (as I pretty much had to sit on her to make her call her mother): how did we get from "Mom? Who's Mom?" to "My mommy's gonna die without me...oh, how I wish I were with mommy?" in the space of 10 minutes? I understand it better now that I have grown closer to Little Berry's mother. ANYWAY, I realized some time ago that Mr. Mayberry seldom (I want to write NEVER, but that may be a SLIGHT overstatement), seldom shares what he's feeling with Little Berry (or, for that matter, with me). One of the curious (good) things that is happening side by side (or because?) of his sobriety is that he has started to randomly show EMOTION. STEP BACK! While I don't want Mr. Mayberry to MANIPULATE the child with HIS emotions, as I feel Little Berry's mother does, I DO think it's healthy to be human and real in front Little Berry (while being aware that Little Berry is a CHILD and feels that thing that most children seem to: "Oh! You're feelings something. It must be my fault. I must FIX it. But I'm a helpless kid and I can't fix it. Oh!"). But I think it's very important that Little Berry be around a Dad who talks, emotes, thinks out loud a bit, so that she has some pattern of what "healthy male" looks like planted in her head for the time not-too-far-in-the-future where she will begin evaluating potential mates. So, long musing short: Mr. Mayberry showed emotion (sadness at the end of the summer) and Little Berry was moved, and we had a nice evening reliving memories and she actually explored her own sadness at ending the summer before bedtime (which I honestly don't believe would've happened had not Mr. Mayberry opened that door). Yes, boys and girls, having FEELINGS is OKAY. Showing feelings is OKAY.
Random moment: As we were walking after dinner, we passed two (rather plump) women in black evening dresses with VERY LOW "vees" in the dresses and ample "boobage" on display. I had a BAD FEW MINUTES OF IT. I felt VERY GOOD about how I looked right UP until that moment. Then I wanted to "freeze frame", run home and get on some of my more revealing clothing and run back and reinsert myself in the picture before "unfreezing frame." Instead, I found my head suddenly pointing STRAIGHT AT MY TOES. My, what interesting toes I had! What a lovely shade of polish! How pretty the gold sparkles on my shoes! Mr. Mayberry made a comment that seemed to reflect he thought I'd been "slimed" (our slang for my allergy to perfumes. And yes, a fair amount of perfume came wafting over us, but that was, of course, not why I suddenly had the body posture of a chastened DOG.) I had the posture of a chastened dog because I was (drum roll please): HAVING A BAD REACTION. BEING UNHEALTHY. About a block after this meeting in the street, Little Berry ran ahead to look in a window and I (summoned great courage) and said: I'm sorry. I need to confess that I just had a REALLY BAD MOMENT back there with all the BOOBAGE on display." And Mr. Mayberry said, "I spent 60 feet looking fervently at the trees. Weren't the trees pretty?" Now this is a bit odd, as Mr. Mayberry has never confessed to me STARING AT REAL-LIFE STRANGERS' BOOBS. However, I have seen him go into gape-mouthed long seconds ogling GIANT BREASTS and have, even before the PA came "out", said things to him when I saw him doing so like, "Honey, don't fall in!" And he has always acted as if I was imagining something that wasn't there. So here we were, two partners being a bit more honest. Pretty toes. Pretty trees. Random moment. He didn't look, but I was reacting as if he had. Fall-out from this addiction. Signs of my own lack of healing. But there we were, two partners being a bit more honest. While not a direct admission, he admitted I was not crazy (if he had to look away, it was a trigger, no?). And while not "beating him up" for my feelings, I had a trigger, fell into self-denigration for a moment, recovered and admitted the problem in myself. Pretty toes. Pretty trees. Random moment.
I am not sure how much spare brain power I will have today to give to "this stuff" while I am at work. Some days, I can run work on several cylinders, while other cylinders of my brain are reflecting on other things. Perhaps not today. I have to lead a big meeting this afternoon, and have not yet finished the prep work for it. But I am interested in reflecting on these questions from the "Family Dynamics and Cybersex" chapter of "In the Shadows of the Net," "STRESS: * In what ways have we allowed ourselves to become so mutually depleted of spiritual, physical and emotional energy that we have nothing left to give anyone? * What steps have we taken to manage stress so that we could maintain balance in our lives and ensure a continuous reservoir of energy with which to nurture both ourselves and others?"
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Post by Mayberry on Jul 27, 2007 11:55:26 GMT -5
I've neglected my journal, so this is likely to be a longish catch-up session.
Things I've Learned About Myself in the Past Couple of Days 1. I need to be VERY careful what I give my attention to on this forum. Good things for me include: - reading other's self-reflection on the threads, when the tone is one of "I need to figure out how to get myself to sanity" vs. "I'm pissed off at the world." I certainly understand the pissed off part. I just don't have room for a lot of other's anger in my life this minute.
- when I need connection without deep thought, the recipe exchange and JohnG's this-old-house threads seem like positive and building exercises
- caring for the members of my accountability circle
Bad things (a.k.a. "Look! Something shiny!") - fights about things I know nothing about
- topics that tempt me to soapbox about our society and how women view themselves
- anything that increases my negativity and distrust
- anything that eats time when I haven't done my "hard work" here for the day
2. I've got a new handle on INTUITION and GUT TRUSTING this week and I need to REMEMBER IT. It did not come out of dealing with the PA/SA stuff, rather it came from an excellent real world conversation with my beloved neighbor after we BOTH engaged in a harmful exercise ignoring our gut feelings about someone we both know and, as a result, were both burned this week. And here's the realization, as simply as I can put it: When I ignore my gut feelings, my intuition, in favor of believing what sounds fishy coming from someone else's mouth, or looks fishy (when it's their behavior), I am--essentially--choosing to value someone else FAR MORE than I value myself. Which is why, I believe, when I ignore my intuition and then get burned, I get so damned mad at myself. I know already about myself that I MUST trust and extend the gift of grace to many people in this life. How many? Everyone, until they prove themselves unable to accept the gift of trust and grace and even, sometimes, after if they have repented. Why? I have changed for the better because others extended the gift of trust and grace to me when I did not "deserve" it. I believe God calls us all to this. I believe social relationship calls ME to this. If I do not REALLY trust and REALLY extend grace, I'm going to be another faker, another non-related, another person deprived of the true love intimacy that only trusting, grace-filled connection with others can bring. I REFUSE TO LIVE IN DISTRUST. And that said, I value my insights, my thoughts, my feelings, my past experiences that all add up to "gut feelings", "intuition." And I am going to STOP IGNORING MY INTUITION. Because, when I do, I de-value myself, I do not extend the GIFT OF TRUST IN MY OWN DIRECTION. This is a deep realization. It has about it some of the hallmarks of "life-changing realization" for me. I need to work on this in my life.
That said, I am very worried about Mr. Mayberry, and I am struggling with finding healthy ways to deal with my worry without stepping in and playing the "hero". Why am I worried? 1. I am worried because Mr. Mayberry seems drained, seems in a funk, seems depressed, seems to be drifting a bit, seems to be giving too much physical and emotional energy to his work, seems to be disconnected. I have rationalized (rightly or wrongly): it's okay for him to be sad; he has a lot to grieve; he's got some huge projects at work (as do I); his work is very physical; he has been struggling with sleep and sexual dreams; Little Berry went back to her other home this week and that's got to be an emotional and practical shift for him (as it is for me); Mr. Mayberry is aware of his emotional state (to some extent, small or large) and has SPOKEN to it a bit and expressed his faith that he will "come around"; I don't want Mr. Mayberry to ignore his feelings; it's okay to be sad; it's okay to grieve; it's okay to be tired. THAT SAID: I am worried because Mr. Mayberry's funk reminds me of some bad places and I am worried that his is missing his FIX, missing the HIGH from his FIX, and I don't know what to do about that, and I don't know what he will choose to do about that. 2. I am worried because we had a little queerness over money yesterday. What I really mean: Mr. Mayberry acted queer about money yesterday. Money is another area of profound secrecy for him, profound inability to discuss. Mr. Mayberry sold something that he had bought from our joint money. He made a profit. He went and bought something that cost exactly the amount he got (both investment and profit). I asked him, because I didn't want to "sit on it" if he'd bought the thing he needed (car part) from the money he got from his afternoon sale of the profit-making item. No, he had pulled that from the joint account. That was fine with me. But then, in what sounded to be a very defensive tone, he assured me he'd put all the sale money in the joint account "right away." It seemed bizarre to me, and I said that all I wanted was for him to (honor his word and) put the initial money (pre-profit) in the joint account. Not the profit. Keep the profit. Do something YOU want to with it. The item he bought after the sale was something I felt strongly needed to come from the joint account, it was a necessary item. And the money he made from the other item was, I felt, fully HIS, the result of his own initiative and his own work. What bothered me? The DEFENSIVENESS. And--FAR MORE STRIKINGLY--the fact that HE DID NOT HEAR ME. Whatever land he landed in, it was not the land where he could hear my honest desire that he put $100 that he'd said he would back in the joint account and KEEP THE REST FOR HIMSELF. Why am I worried about this? Because I think it points to deep distrust in him toward me, and toward discussing any issues and coming up with a joint solution. Or, for that matter, accepting "gifts" (in this case: Mr. Mayberry, PLEASE take the profit as your gift to yourself. Please do something with it that makes you happy). 3. We had a bad situation with someone else this week (referred to in my "What I've Learned about Myself This Week" section). I know I am ANGRY, BETRAYED and WORRIED about this situation. I find it very queer that he did not show and is not showing much emotion at all about what happened. And what happened is serious, and I KNOW he feels some things in reaction to what happened (what happened could have seriously endangered our child. It did not. But it was a possibility). What did happen seriously compromised the security of our home. I COULD rationalize this away: I feel more strongly about violation of our home than he does. He is focusing on the fact that it wasn't as bad as it could've been. But you know, MY GUTS tell me that he feels a whole damn lot about this situation, and it REALLY WORRIES me that he is "giving" NO REACTION to this incident and its aftermath. When I put these three worries together, they spell, for me, at my GUT LEVEL: Mr. Mayberry's in a danger zone. He's "down in the dumps", he's actively NOT LISTENING and NOT SHARING. I hate writing that. I hate "predicting" that this is a danger zone. And, that said, I believe what my guts are telling me: Mr. Mayberry's in a danger zone.
Do I know what to do about it? No. I do know I am not going to DENY that I feel this way. I have written about it here. I am going to continue to be aware of what I'm seeing. For me this means I won't "zone out" and "explain away" what I'm seeing and hearing. Beyond that? Haven't a clue. Off with me for a bit.
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Post by whoami on Jul 27, 2007 15:43:32 GMT -5
Mayberry, when you stated "I do not extend THE GIFT OF TRUST IN MY OWN DIRECTION," does this mean you have realized that you haven't trusted yourself (in the past) but now you plan on changing that?
I have had difficult times trusting myself on this journey, not even knowing what I really want, what I really feel, what I really think...I don't mean to be a moron, but is this what you are struggling with? That you haven't listened to your intuiton, but now it's high time you start trusting yourself and your gut?
If your gut is telling you Mr. Mayberry is in a danger zone, my gut tells me you are probably right. I think your plans to not zone out or explain away, are very sound plans. I would try to resist the predicting, too. We need to put the problem in God's hand, yes? But where you're at right now is NOT a fun place to be. And I have no clue what you should do next either, but I trust that you will do the very best, and I am asking God to help you do it.
Thank you for your recipe thread, and your ideas about organizing the readings, and the postings. I get overwhelmed here sometimes, I confess. And triggered but also sometimes moved to Hoots of laughter til tears roll down my face. I'm just glad this place exists, and for friends like you {{{{{MAYBERRY}}}}}
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Post by LookingUp on Jul 27, 2007 15:52:32 GMT -5
I'm uncertain how long Mr. Mayberry has been sober. Could he be going through withdrawal? It seems withdrawal may hit about 2 to 6 weeks sober.
During withdrawal, they are so overwhelmed with emotions that they can't fix with their addiction, with missing the brain chemical fix, with grieving the loss of their "safety net", that they may act totally non-emotional or almost irrational with emotions, depending on their personality. I would presume there might be shame during withdrawal because it's a reminder they did get hooked; and he may not know how to address what's going on out of fear he could emotionally explode or implode... and is trying to spare you more hurt.
Many of the wives (when I belonged to a step-mother's support group) said they had very mixed feelings at the end of summer. They would miss the step-child/ren but were glad to get their husband's full attention back; however, the husband often goes into depression and can't talk about it for a while. Often there is grief, anger, frustration, disappointment, and loads of guilt that his child has to share two homes and two sets of parents - it's almost like an emotional self-flaggelation that he "allowed" that to happen to his child. Most of the step-moms I know just let their husband have the time he needs to process those emotions and he'll snap back like a rubber band and be adjusted and overjoyed with his new life shortly.
I'll reply to the other parts of your post in the Circle.
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Post by Mayberry on Jul 28, 2007 7:31:43 GMT -5
Yes. Sorry to have gotten too fancy with my wording there...More simply stated: "I often do not TRUST MYSELF." And I plan to change that as much as I can without falling into pride and arrogance. While my "thoughts" are not always right, I am beginning to learn that my GUT FEELINGS are, invariably, dead-on track. Thank you for that affirmation. I am VERY MUCH trying to resist predicting and limit myself to BELIEVING that the BEHAVIOR I am OBSERVING is REALLY HAPPENING (and it is). Thank you for your prayers on my/our behalf. I too am asking God to help us. And I'm grateful for YOU! Thanks for the post. Jinn
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Post by Mayberry on Jul 28, 2007 7:44:30 GMT -5
About three weeks, I believe. And yes, I think from what you describe that this is a REAL probability. While I appreciate that Mr. Mayberry may be trying to "spare me more hurt", I really don't feel any judgement toward him (but acknowledge he may be feeling shame). I am sure his is aware of the risk of explosion, but, frankly, I am more worried about him IMPLODING. Explosions I can handle (this really is something I know how to deal with). I feel very helpless when I think he's over there on the verge on imploding.
This makes PERFECT sense to me; enough sense that I read this to Mr. Mayberry and I saw his head nodding. Thank you for that "pointer" and for your post. The combination of stressors (work, home, end of summer, withdrawal) must be OVERWHELMING to Mr. Mayberry; I hope he can deal with these without being OVERWHELMED. I adore him, and I love him, and I can't fix him, but I sure want him to land in a genuinely happier place for his own soul's good (and heck, it would be good for me too!). Thanks again, dear one! Jinn
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Post by Mayberry on Jul 29, 2007 13:28:47 GMT -5
So, Mr. Mayberry's Sunday School class was canceled and he drifted into the class I'm in this morning. Actually, my group is NOT a class...we're reading the Psalms (randomly) and reflecting in a lectio divina style on them. (This is where, basically, you listen for a phrase that catches your attention in the scripture, and then, in silence, try to find out what God is trying to tell you in that phrase that got your attention). So, since Mr. Mayberry was a guest, the honor of choosing the Psalm fell to him. And he did what I had done last week, and closed his Bible and opened it to the middle and there was Psalm 38. He told me after the fact that he KNEW, to his MARROW, that whatever Psalm he opened to was going to directly speak to what was going on in his life. I think this Psalm might reasonably be re-titled "The PA Psalm." I felt such love and compassion for him, and also a fair amount of humor. The other two people present in our group got VERY different things from the Psalm, but Mr. Mayberry and I were stunned by the immediacy of God's words to us in this ancient text. Here is is, Psalm 38, with notations of what I suspected Mr. Mayberry might be feeling noted in red by yours truly. I don't claim this is what he was thinking; this was me thinking for him. << Psalm 38 >> New American Standard © -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 A Psalm of David, for a memorial. O LORD, rebuke me not in Your wrath, And chasten me not in Your burning anger. 'Cause I really deserve it.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2 For Your arrows have sunk deep into me, And Your hand has pressed down on me. Yep. I'm pretty much feeling like my whole world has come crashing down right now.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of Your indignation; There is no health in my bones because of my sin. I'm pretty sure this PA has messed up every particle of who I am.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4 For my iniquities are gone over my head; As a heavy burden they weigh too much for me. I don't even know how to begin to deal with what I'm discovering about myself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 5 My wounds grow foul and fester Because of my folly. I feel like the lowest of the low.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6 I am bent over and greatly bowed down; I go mourning all day long. Boy, this David guy sure has a great way with words.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7 For my loins are filled with burning, And there is no soundness in my flesh. I am tormented right now with chemicals that mess up even my sleep, and I'm tired, and I'm feeling all these new things... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 8 I am benumbed and badly crushed; I groan because of the agitation of my heart. It would be easier, on some levels, to DIE out of this situation than face what I need to face about myself.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9 Lord, all my desire is before You; And my sighing is not hidden from You. God, I hope you're listening.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10 My heart throbs, my strength fails me; And the light of my eyes, even that has gone from me. I'm having panic attacks, and my eyes are swollen from crying, and I feel like crap.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 My loved ones and my friends stand aloof from my plague; And my kinsmen stand afar off. My wife won't have sex with me, and I can't talk to anyone I know about this because I'm so ashamed.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 12 Those who seek my life lay snares for me; And those who seek to injure me have threatened destruction, And they devise treachery all day long. If they knew about this, they'd shun me.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 13 But I, like a deaf man, do not hear; And I am like a mute man who does not open his mouth. DUH!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 14 Yes, I am like a man who does not hear, And in whose mouth are no arguments. This is my own fault, and I've just begun to own it, but on some levels I'm stunned into silence by my own behavior in the past.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 15 For I hope in You, O LORD; You will answer, O Lord my God. This is a pretty slim hope, in my book. Heck, I open the Bible and here's David talking about burning loins. Criminy.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 16 For I said, "May they not rejoice over me, Who, when my foot slips, would magnify themselves against me." I'm really worried my wife is going to act all superior because of this. I know she's struggling with that. Grrrr.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 17 For I am ready to fall, And my sorrow is continually before me. I feel lousy. I want to do right. I have to reinvent my universe. Everything I do feels like it could lead to mistakes.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 18 For I confess my iniquity; I am full of anxiety because of my sin. I am still so worried she's going to ditch me if I tell her just how rotten I am.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 19 But my enemies are vigorous and strong, And many are those who hate me wrongfully. Boy, if my ex-wife knew about this, she wouldn't hesitate to try to use it against me.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 20 And those who repay evil for good, They oppose me, because I follow what is good. Nope, my recovery wouldn't mean a hill of beans in court...she'd use this to try to drive a lasting wedge between me and my kid.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 21 Do not forsake me, O LORD; O my God, do not be far from me! Help! Help!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 22 Make haste to help me, O Lord, my salvation! Help!-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “Scripture quotations taken from the NASB." Information visit www.lockman.org
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Post by Mayberry on Jul 30, 2007 5:29:24 GMT -5
The tone of the weekend was more positive than the end of last week around our house. What do I really mean by that? I mean that Mr. Mayberry pulled himself out of his funk to some degree. I had a very unproductive weekend, by my standards, and am just going to have to let that go and act with more focus this week.
Someone posted this in response to another's question on the board this morning:
While I suspect I will reflect on this more, this encapsulates something that I've been feeling about why it is not right for me to have sexual relations with the Mr. at present. Mr. Mayberry said something (on his way out the door) yesterday that really caught my attention about needing to learn how to be intimate in bed. I really, really, really want to know more about how he feels about this and I told him I'd look forward to him bringing that conversation up again when he could talk about it.
As I have written before, something has felt "off" in our sexual relations since the beginning. Not every time, but most of the time. Finding out some of where he has directed his sexual energies (porn, sexual phone calls and email with old GF) has shut down a lot of my desire to be with him and also (though I hate this word) has "triggered" me when in bed with him.
I don't pretend to know how to make things right, sexually, between Mr. Mayberry & myself, nor do I think that I have all the answers here. But here are a few musings:
1. I think I need full disclosure from him. I have already made it clear, I think, that I will not reject him. But before we can move forward, sexually, I need to know "everything." Because there are things he has not told me about that I know about. Because I suspect there are things he has not told me about that I don't know about. Because I want him to be "clean" about what he has done, in courtship and relationship with me, where he was fantasizing about others, talking to others, "courting" others, acting out with others. I suspect this statement of my "need to know" might lead to a verbal attack from others on this forum (though I would certainly hope not). And that's fine. I am a pretty strange bird. I have a pretty good idea of what, for myself, I can "deal with." And, I suspect, I cannot "cleanly" enter renewed sexual relations with the Mr. without him getting to a stage in his recovery or showing his trust toward me enough to tell me what HAS BEEN. Honestly. Fully. Not because of a "d-day", not because I've gone through his computer and found this or that and asked about it. But because he recognizes his need to "come clean" and my need to hear it; his need to confess and my need to forgive. I wonder if he needs "practice" with this first, through writing, talking to another man here, talking to a SA group, talking to a therapist. I don't know the answer, and I'm not concerned about how he gets there. I just know what I think I need here.
2. I think I need a solid grasp of "he has changed his behavior" and, perhaps, that he knows himself on a deeper level and could STOP certain sexual behaviors when bed with me because he knows they are about his addiction and not about inter-related lovemaking with me. I don't want to be the heavy. I don't want to be his in-bed "filter." I think the reason the quote, above, "got me going" this morning is that without his disclosure and with his sexual behavior toward me, I have felt more and more like a sexual object, not a sexual partner. Just there in the bed. In retrospect, I find it (morbidly) funny how many times over the course of the relationship I've actually said, in the midst of "sex with each other"..."Hey, I'm over here!" Having my eyes opened a bit with the partial knowledge of what he's been doing....WOW. Is this where I note what a fool I've felt, and how good it feels not to feel like such a fool at the moment? Probably.
3. I think the lights are going to have to be on when we resume sexual relations. Literally and figuratively.
Those musings aside, I was moved (troubled, inspired, disturbed, enlightened) by the poster's words that I have requoted here today and I thank the poster for those words. It helped nudge me toward dealing with this in my own head a bit.
There is more I planned to write about another topic (emotions) here, but I have promised myself balance today, and I am going to go do some housework before going to work.
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Post by LookingUp on Jul 30, 2007 8:47:04 GMT -5
1. I think I need full disclosure from him. I have already made it clear, I think, that I will not reject him. But before we can move forward, sexually, I need to know "everything." I thought that initially, too. But my husband has never more then acknowledged that he looked at dirty pictures (after being caught and only for what I found and denied any more; tried to BS me by saying I was such a good sleuth that I'd found them all - but I didn't believe it) - but he's disclosed nothing more and if I ask specific questions walks away or starts telling me my faults rather then focusing on the topic. He's got me well-trained to no longer ask. He lost the trust - he has to figure out how to restore it or we'll never be close; I do my part - I pay attention and look for any small behavior that builds even miniscule trust. For me, I had to lower expectations. My current expectation is that he will tell me anything that could come up again (even in his sobriety) and be a problem. Eg. I let him take lingerie photos of me as he promised if he had them he wouldn't porn (I had no idea what PA was when I agreed to that. Now the digital photos are destroyed)... but do those pics of me exist on an amature site - he refuses to discuss that topic and said I was belitteling and being rude to him to think that of him - notice he didn't deny they could be public. My concern is my PA son could find them; and I want to be prepared. When we were dating a married woman bought plane tickets to come visit him and he stopped the visit before it happened (I thought he was a friend to her but I really wonder after D-Day); so I'd like to know if some woman could knock on our porch some day because of a past internet emotional affair. Things like that are now what I need to regain trust - but I've had several years of his muteness concerning his PA behavior. I'm certainly NOT suggesting you change your needs based on mine - just telling my story. The few times we've had sex it has either been daylight or lights on. I also insist on eye contact - which limits a few positions - but it's the only way I can feel safe enough to enjoy that intimacy. He thinks I should be "over it by now" - but that's his unrealistic expectation. LookingUp
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Post by Mayberry on Jul 30, 2007 15:15:48 GMT -5
Thanks for the post, LookingUp. I appreciate you sharing more of your story with me, and--more importantly--some of your reactions, decisions and feelings about your story.
I really am not interested in lowering my expectations on this one: tell it all to me. Our relationship is young enough (2 years, including courtship and marriage) that I think he can rack his brains and get it all written down and then spoken aloud. Heck, this is behavior he's ashamed of, right? And has lied about, right? From my experience with lies (both personally and in others) the lies are surrounded in the psyche with little red fences ('cause you never know when you're going to have to lie some MORE about them) and they're actually a lot easier to remember than, say, truthful, positive, good, fun things you should be overjoyed to remember and talk about.
The good side (from my point of view) is that I'm willing to wait. In celibacy. For him. To decide or be recovered enough or whatever it takes to tell me. All of it. As it has entered our relationship. In the past two years.
I won't do the "specific question" game because I learned, after the phone-sex-with-girlfriend "discovery" that I am NOT SMART ENOUGH TO ASK ALL THE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS. It wasn't till I was sorting our bills for the year to file away that I happened to notice all the damned phone calls to Utah and all the incoming text messages and outgoing text messages on his cell phone. So we got to have "discovery day #2" on the same issue. And we've been at a stage that he will sometimes answer specific questions truthfully and sometimes lie to my face. So no, I won't play the "I'll answer but you've got to ask" game with him.
And I'm not going to play Girl Home Detective because, quite frankly, I have done enough of that and I don't like how it makes me feel.
I give thanks to God and Mr. Mayberry both that Mr. Mayberry's never tried to verbally blame-shift (that this is MY problem). I think he has FELT that I am his problem (he's jacking off because our sex life isn't good enough or he's not getting any)...but he has been WISE ENOUGH not to verbalize that in my direction. I think that's a positive sign.
He really is such an incredible guy except in the areas where he has guilt, shame or lack of trust. AAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH.
I really really really hope he gets the message that I want to trust him, if he's trustworthy, and that there are things he can do to help me. Yes, yes, I know I must help myself, and I am. And yes, I will share my thoughts of what it's going to take to get ME to a renewed sexual life with HIM. (On the same topic, HE needs to figure out what he needs to do, think, know, whatever to be in a renewed sexual life with ME.)
I get so pissed off reading some of the posts on here, these women who, IMHO, should just laugh in their partner's face when the blame-shifting starts and walk away. And then, in humbleness that is more complete, I know many women would just walk away from MY situation. GRRRRRRRRR.
I find no joy in living in a situation where one partner feels like the "villain" and the other is, whether she accepts the role or not, cast as the "smart one" or the "savior" or the "hero" or the "goody two shoes." SCREW THAT! I mess up all the time. ALL THE TIME. Yes, I feel guilt and shame and remorse. Yes, I own what I have done, I name it, I beg forgiveness, and I move on, trying to do better, DOING BETTER. I can't imagine how I can continue in sexual relationship with my partner without the past with that partner being disclosed. (Yes, LookingUp, I understand you've made different choices and this is JUST ME I'm talking about. I'm not aiming at YOU, honey.)
AGGGGHHHH! This must be a pretty touchy subject for me still, because I'm flaring at the mo. Time to step back and center, thus ending the rant.
I love Mr. Mayberry. Mr. Mayberry has a problem. Mr. Mayberry has changed his behavior in the past weeks. There is more change that can and, I suspect, will happen. I want us to be "normal" and we're not. Not right now. I can and WILL be patient with that fact. There is no harm (that I can see at present) in thinking about what I need to get me closer to normal. Mr. Mayberry may not be able to meet my needs in this area at present. That is okay. I can and will be patient. But I won't stop thinking about WHERE I need to heal in my life as a result of the past two years, and I won't stop thinking about POSITIVE, ACHIEVABLE steps to get me there IF my partner can meet my needs.
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Post by LookingUp on Jul 30, 2007 16:55:45 GMT -5
Glad you got some of the pain and frustration out; no, I didn't take it as anti-my choices. Rants have their place. I've often said I'd rather rant in my journal then rant on my husband! When I use to rant on him, it never helped a thing and just made me feel worse. I think he'd use my rant on him episodes as excuses to act out more.
Wow, what a beautiful graphic illustration. Makes total sense.
Good for you for not joining in the 20 questions game. For me, that was just a set up to be lied to and then feel worse about my husband and about myself.
I can see your point NOW; but when I first landed here, the few times my husband did blame-shifting, there was just enough truth in what he said - that meshed perfectly with my own insecurities that I couldn't laugh but could easily cry. With education, I realize that stuff was addict BS - but I had to get educated first.
My apologies that my reply triggered a rant. Glad you were able to rant here. By the end it seemed you are more focused on what you need and how to get those needs met. That's good.
LookingUp
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Post by whoami on Jul 30, 2007 17:43:20 GMT -5
Mayberry, I loved your thoughts in red in Psalm 38 (my favorite Psalm) They were perfect!
I am glad for your decision to abstain from sex right now. In the SA program that my husband follows, abstainence is strongly encouraged for any period of time you need to get your head on straight. Of course this is geared to the addict, to take time to get out of the p fog, to do the stepwork needed for self analysis, etc..but I'm sure the SO is considered too. She needs to feel safe and sound, while she does her own SO work. We didn't follow this advice, our case being a bit different. ( I had been deprived of intimacy for SOOOO long) But we did have a period of refraining on advice of our thereapist, months later. And that's neither here or there. I really understand your decisions for celibacy right now, and I think it's probably best for the Mr. too.
We had 3 disclosures, he saved the worst for last of course. The last disclosure was about 6 months after the first one. I did do the guessing game a bit. And he continued to lie (by ommission, but also lying using the words no of course not) but also what came out was somethings I could have never dreamed of. You are right, we are not savvy enough (won't use the word intelligent) to begin to know what to ask.
He had a stong sponsorship, and the guy said I needed to know everything. I DID in fact need to know everything. In therapy, I struggled a lot with, is this IT now? Do I really know everything I need to know? She had a good out....in 32 some years of relationship with me (he cheated before marriage too) he doubtless could not remember every little incidence of his sordidness, and indifferences to me. I believe I have the basics...I believe he is not currently holding something from me that he can remember. He was so sick of his lies, and beaten down from all the work in keeping them. I think he's done the best he can.
In your relatively brief relationship, I can't see why he couldn't remember things in relatioship to you. You should have your truths, Mayberry. And you KNOW I'm pulling for both of ya!
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