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Post by joyfulneurotic on Jan 25, 2006 12:06:21 GMT -5
Creole,
I'm so glad you found a "real life" person you can talk to about this stuff - and someone who can truly relate about SA. That is such a blessing.
I really am concerned about you two, though. Detachment is good, but is there anything going on that does connect you two? Are there activities you still enjoy together? You can do these things without becoming emotionally enmeshed so that the relationship does not die while you maintain boundaries. My therapist told me the while detachment is a crucial tool to get out of the codependent "two step," too much detachment can easily lead us into doing the other person's inventory which creates defensiveness and kills what is left of the relationship. It discourages our partner from actually working on their stuff if we're constantly doing their inventory. She called me on it and told me that, in that way, looking at the Karpman's triangle, that was one way in which I played the victimizer role against him.
Something to think about. Could be totally off-base, but if there is something that can be salvaged in your relationship, I would hate for you to become soooo strong in yourself that you sabotage any chance of it.
I hope that wasn't unwelcome.
jn
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Post by creole on Jan 25, 2006 13:09:21 GMT -5
Hi JN,
Not unwelcome at all. We do share some commonalities: our enjoyment of movies, cooking together, walking in the woods and our daughter. Personality wise, temperment wise, we're 180 degrees apart--he's an introvert, I'm an extrovert. Many people are amazed by the fact that we've remained married so long in spite of those differences.
Its difficult sometimes to get him to engage in any joint activity. He is quite adamant about what he does or doesn't want to do. I never considered that I might be "doing his inventory" but will take that into consideration as I process and filter.
More good stuff to consider and thanks for it!
Creole
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Post by joyfulneurotic on Jan 25, 2006 13:28:21 GMT -5
I'm glad that wasn't unwelcome. Any time a marriage can be salvaged, that is always my hope. Not at any cost, certainly, but if you can grow and become stronger, it doesn't necessarily mean you have to leave him in the dust. Intimacy can still be maintained if we don't get into the attack/defense positions.
Nuff soap box. You know I love your journal and find many inspirations in it.
jn
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Post by creole on Jan 26, 2006 17:37:29 GMT -5
Found a new site with daily meditations. Today's meditation/reflection is particulary applicable to me: "(Love)..Does not rejoice in iniquity but rejoices in the truth" We have all had our fair share of people that have lied to us throughout our lives. In relationships, truth is treasured as an essential part of love. When my SO lies to me, it often hurts more than anything else they could do to me. The paradox however is that I may have great difficulty in sharing the truth of who I really am, or listening to the same about my partner. If my SO really wants to spend an evening with friends instead of me, I lash out at them in anger, and they learn that being truthful means telling the truth only when it doesn't get them into trouble. When I punish my SO for being truthful, I actually send a mixed message: only tell me the truth when it won't hurt me, and lie the rest of the time. And then I wonder why I catch them in a lie later on. If I want to rejoice in the truth, I need to value it highly, and reinforce that through my actions. If my SO is truthful about wanting to spend an evening with others instead of me, maybe it's time to pause and ask myself "how important is truth to me?" In asking myself that, I can find ways of dealing with my feelings that support such honesty, instead of tearing it down. Just for Today If truthfulness is really important to me, then I'll look more closely at how my choices show that belief. Today, I'll try to find ways of rejoicing in the truth, even when it's difficult - especially when it's difficult. Joyful posted some good insights/thoughts in my journal yesterday. After mulling them over, I need to write my thoughts. My therapist told me the while detachment is a crucial tool to get out of the codependent "two step," too much detachment can easily lead us into doing the other person's inventory which creates defensiveness and kills what is left of the relationship. It discourages our partner from actually working on their stuff if we're constantly doing their inventory. I guess that the boundary violation over the weekend has me focusing more on what he is not doing rather than what he is doing (although the boundary violation was damaging enough). Reality check Creole, you might just be about to slipp back into a co-dep behavior by doing HIS inventory--you've got enough poo of your own to deal with without messing with his. Backing off, working and focusing on yourself will ultimately be more beneficial to you Something to think about. Could be totally off-base, but if there is something that can be salvaged in your relationship, I would hate for you to become soooo strong in yourself that you sabotage any chance of it. Too strong in myself? Never considered that. Could that happen? What a transformation that would be. I'm already transformed, but the metamorphasis in now way close to completion. I'm progressing, and its good. As for the relationship, I can't say what will happen. You know, I confess: I've never had a healthy relationship with a man, never. All I've experienced is the actuality of a co-dependent, unhealthy relationship. As a result of me changing my co-dep behavior and thinking, I'm seeing changes in the way people relate to me and how I feel about myself. That little word "No" is a powerful one. Let me share: H asked me today if I'd slept well on the sofa last night. I grinned and said I had a great night's sleep. He is not happy at all that I've slept on the sofa since the weekend; his co-dep neediness is surfacing. The co-dep part of me is ready to go back to the bedroom and crawl up in the bed--the other part of me is saying: he has refused to respect your boundary, he continues to violate it. Do what is right for you. Sigh. At this time, I do believe that if H & I are to make our relationship work (and I am about ready to throw in the towel), we both have to heal and become autonomous, independent, self-loving individuals. Joy, your words of wisdom and insight are always appreciated! Your truth, honesty and courage are always appreciated! Creole
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Post by LookingUp on Jan 26, 2006 19:27:31 GMT -5
At this time, I do believe that if H & I are to make our relationship work (and I am about ready to throw in the towel), we both have to heal and become autonomous, independent, self-loving individuals. Wow, that's a powerful statement. That's what I want in my marriage, too. Any hints on how to get there? LookingUp
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Post by lizardking on Jan 30, 2006 9:23:46 GMT -5
Creole,
Just checking in on my favorite cajun poster.
I have been reading your journal and I have to say it has been very inspiring to me - it's dog-gone good! I laugh with you and cry with you when I read your posts.
So I simply wanted to drop you a line of encouragement in here and let you know that I am wishing you the very best in your struggle. Most of all I am praying for you.
Hope this finds you in a good place this morning.
LizardKing
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Post by creole on Jan 30, 2006 10:26:16 GMT -5
Thank you LizardKing for the encouragement, and I do feel that I am in a good place this am.
I had an interesting weekend. On Friday, I was offered the job that I interviewed for and accepted it. All my friends, my family and my boss are all excited and happy for me. My H said that he is happy, but I'm not sure of it. My intuitive radar, which was so finely honed to the co-dep emotional quirks, is telling me that he isn't truly happy, that he is really concerned about the direction of our relationship and what might happen to him. Difficult for me at best. . . .and his behavior seems to reinforce his co-dep need to control what he can to obtain some relief. I can't remember if I journaled this, prior to me actually accepting the job, he wanted to know how much I planned to contribute to the joint fund as he "needed some relief". How co-dependent is that? Don't know, but that elephant is tromping around in the room and I'm tired of seeing the furniture shake. Address it and move forward Creole.
My brother and I drove our Mom to the 50th wedding anniversary of her brother and SIL. It was a 4 hour trip, one way. For 4 hours, my Mom was on a tirade, about how all her brothers never came to see her, never called, the inadequacies and injustices of how they treated her. Needless to say, it was difficult at best, not to turn around and say "Mamma, but you treat them the same way! You never call them, you make no effort to go visit them. ". I held my tongue and prayed that God would let her see the truth. I found myself really getting ticked off at her and her inability to let go of the anger and the hurt and then I remembered: what we dislike intensly in someone else is what we dislike about ourselves. Hummm, good thing to think about Creole, time for self-examination again.
More later. . . .
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Post by creole on Jan 30, 2006 17:19:38 GMT -5
Last week I discovered this site and the meditations which are wonderful. Perhaps someone else will find the site useful. relationshipweb.com/odat/index.htmlToday's meditation from the above site: "(Love)..endures all things" At first glance, there seems to be little difference between "bearing all things", and "enduring all things". But bearing is about the degree of frustration, hurt, or turmoil. Endurance speaks more of being able to bear such things over a period of time. For example, maybe my SO has said some very unkind words to me. I may bear the pain those words unleashed for a day or two, but finally, I can't stand it any longer; I explode, lashing out angrily with my own cutting words. How much endurance my love has relies on my willingness to hang in there for as long as it takes, to find the answers I'm looking for, and healthy solutions to difficulties I have with the relationship. Without such endurance, I can easily find myself quitting just before important insights appear. Enduring all things doesn't mean that I need to stay in a relationship that is clearly unhealthy for me. What it does mean is that I don't leave simply because I can't stand the turmoil anymore. I'm able to tolerate such feelings, until I find the lessons they are trying to bring me, and let them enrich me. Just for Today: Today, if I'm tempted to "jump ship", I'll remember that struggle and pain are often normal companions on worthwhile journeys. Even Columbus didn't make his great discovery without getting seasick first! To endure is the first thing that a child ought to learn, and that which he will have the most need to know. - Jean Jacques Rousseau
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Post by creole on Jan 31, 2006 10:21:03 GMT -5
Yesterday, LU started a good thread, "Rebuilding Trust/Communication". I'm at an impasse with my H since the last boundary violation. I have slept on the sofa since that date. I told him that he had cashed out the trust debit card. He is reluctant to talk with me about this issue--we can talk about day to day stuff, but when it comes to us, he is very reluctant. Anyway, I liked what Tootrue posted in one of her responses: Sometimes walking out the door means getting some fresh air....not leaving, not punishment for him. More like, a new fresh perspective for yourself and a little time for him to think things through. Independence can be so helpful. Thank goodness for detachment and independence. I haven't had independence in many years--I was so caught up in the co-dep two step, independence was not something that I considered. My sleeping on the sofa since the last boundary violation is not punishment, it is a consequence of his choice. He doesn't want to give up the pot and he hasn't respected my boundary. The consequence is for my protection. . .and yes, if I have to leave, I can do so. No shortage of friends with available bedrooms, etc. I have a friendship network. Having a place to stay is not a concern. I can go anytime I want. . .I have stayed with him because I wanted to give him the opportunity to try to change. Think of it as a business deal. When the other person won't budge what works? Put your offer out there and then get up and walk away from the table. Someone who really wants to be part of the deal will make a counter offer. If they don't want it, knowing that also can help dissolve the stalemate in that you know just what you have to work with. Never thought of this in terms of business deal. H is wired to consider situations in that way and he earned his living selling so he is very adept at the techniques of persuasive selling; in the past, when we would disagree, he woud try to "sell me the deal" that he wanted me to take. Its hard to sit there and know that he's treating me as if I were a reluctant or hostile client who must be sold, the deal closed. H has admitted that closing the deal was a big ego rush for him, that he lived to go close a sale. Try combining an addicts ability to look you in the eye and baldface lie with a trained, professional salesperson and you might begin to see what I deal with. Sometimes it is a verbal nightmare. What is truth? Sigh, I feel sometimes thats what he's doing to me, to our relationship, its been reduced to nothing but a business deal, especially since he is really concerned about how much more of my new increased salary I will be contributing to our joint accounts; he's already stated that he "needs some relief". I pegged that statement as his deprivation mode kicking in--after reading Carnes' "Sexual Anorexia" I believe that he chooses deprivation as one of his safety coping behaviors just like controlling the money is a safety coping behavior. I do not plan to be unreasonable, but by golly, when he says things like "I need some relief", I feel like I am just a paycheck. I've told him that, and he knows why I feel that way, but things haven't changed yet. Don't know if they will. . . . I also liked Freya's response: A good boundary is to practice total honesty - try and find some way to separate if things get any worse, even if only for a little while. Thanks to San! That is a boundary I'd never considered. I've been practicing total honesty with him and others as well as with myself but never thought about setting that as one of my boundaries. Although I am honest with myself, sometimes I delay really stating truth outloud, validating it to myself because I simply don't want to deal with the the pain that facing reality brings. Gotta do better, will begin implementing this boundary today. I will also share with my H that this is a new boundary. He has yet to set a boundary, after all the time, all the counseling, no boundaries for him. He may never set a boundary. IMHO separation in the same house isn't always a good thing, after all, what if he decides to go on his merry way and continue on with his addiction, and you're still in the house wanting things to come good... it can't.. your pain will deepen.. he is getting away with it.. and fizzle. From my perspective, it feels like my H and I are roommates. You are right about how the pain deepens with the good things don't come, when the expectations aren't met, when the boundaries are violated. Facing and acknowledging that reality hurts like hell as does acknowledging that your efforts have been for naught. Time, energy, emotions, for what? Same song, same dance, different day. No pain, no change huh? So much for my thoughts this am. . . .
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Post by creole on Feb 1, 2006 10:13:55 GMT -5
Combining advice posted on this Board and the information I've processed from the Carnes book "Sexual Anorexia" and the Kasl book "Women, Sex and Addiction", I initiated communication with my H last night after he finished his music practice. I shared with him a new boundary--total honesty. I then asked if I could share some of my thoughts and feelings about the current impass and he agreed. I told him that I realized that in the past, I had used sex with him for the wrong reasons, many of which were tied to my co-dependent wiring, and that I believe that made me a co-dependent sex addict. I told him at that time, I believed that making love with him meant that I was loved and I didn't recognize and acknowledge many of his other expressions of love for me. I told him that even though I loved him, I had also abused him because it was wrong for me to use sex with him to lessen my fears, but at that time, that was my coping behavior and I didn't realize that my behavior was contributing to his own addictive behaviors. I asked him to forgive me for how I had treated him in the past and I told him that I would not do that to him again. He just looked at me and said nothing. I then shared that the last boundary violation really rocked my trust in him, it set me back to square 1. I told him that his choice has put me in a very difficult position with regard to my recovery, that I didn't feel safe. I told him that a consequence of his boundary violation is it again triggered all the anger, emotions and feelings associated with having my trust in him compromised. I looked him in the eye and acknowledged that I couldn't control him, couldn't control his choices, but I can control mine. I also told him that when he violates my boundary, I feel disrespected. I then told him that I wasn't sure how much longer I could continue in a relationship where there was no respect. H then asked if he could share with me and I agreed. He then told me that he still has serious trust issues with me with regard to my salary, and what is equitable. Sigh, its back to the money. I asked him to be specific about the trust issue and reminded him that I'd done exactly what he asked--last summer, I put my account in Quicken on our computer, he could see every transaction. I told him that I'd been honest, upfront and that I had nothing to hide. H then proceeds to bring up the trailer incident with my brother. I again acknowledged that I had done that during a time when we were barely civil with each other, I again acknowledged that I would discuss with him helping anyone, and even if we disagreed, if I chose to help, it is my decision, that I wouldn't keep him in the dark anymore. He stated that it was unfair for me to only put 1/2 of my salary into the bills and obligations when he puts 3/4 of his. I pointed out that his annual salary is between 2-3 times my annual salary and that all things considered, I figured that 1/2 of my net paycheck was generous. I also pointed out to him my 5 year goal. H goes back to the trailer--rationalizations, justifications, deflections. I sat quietly and listened; after a minute or so, I asked him if I could say something and he agreed. I told him that I didn't appreciate him bringing an issue that we had previously discussed and mutually agreed was settled into our current discussion, that he had violated our "rules of engagement" (meaning once its settled, we will not discuss again), he was not "fighting fair", that I want to get back to the discussion of the real reasons he has trust issues with me. Boy, did that piss him off. . .he stalked off to the back bedroom. I will post some quotes from Kasl's book later this evening. Nice meditation today! relationshipweb.com/odat/feb/feb1.htm
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Post by creole on Feb 1, 2006 14:35:54 GMT -5
Now I am confused. . . .
As I wrote earlier today, I admitted my wrongdoings to him last night. I acknowledged how I had wronged him. I slept badly on the sofa and sleeping there is beginning to affect me physically.
This am, both of us were polite to each other. H didn't show any anger from the prior evening's communications and he was very complementary of me (I'm wearing my Asics, jeans and a sweatshirt today LOL) and my perfume and he became more physically affectionate than usual when we left to go to work. Home for lunch, he continues the complements and physical affection--kissing my neck, complementing me on various things, really sweet.
Why am I confused? I'd appreciate some verbal communication from him. I don't know why he's had the 180 degree turnaround in the way he's behaving or what he's thinking. You can imagine what I'm thinking--is this a "Honeymoon Creole" effort? Make her believe, sell her a nice picture that will still allow her to be controlled by her co-dep beliefs, etc.
My radars are out. . .I can't trust someone who disrespects me, who violates my boundaries.
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Post by creole on Feb 1, 2006 17:07:35 GMT -5
OK, I know, three posts in one day. Gotta get this out. . .SA/PA's if you're reading this, I am probably gonna have a good rant, so you might wish to avoid this particular post. If your pain or your insecurities are triggered, you were advised..
I am physically tired and my stomach is hurting. In her book, Kasl mentions that stomach pain often is a sign of anger turned inward. So in an effort to avoid a severe digestive crisis (and I've really had them), I'm gonna try to figure out exactly what I'm so dammed mad about. And I mean very angry. I ain't just pissed, I'm as angry as a ball of fire ants on a floating log.
When my H violates my boundary and makes a simple apology "I'm so sorry, I messed up, this won't happen again", I feel disrespected. Same lie, different day. H doesn't have boundaries and is making no attempt to set them for himself nor will he respect mine. He doesn't get it, he just doesn't get it. Double standard here--he expects me to respect his WISHES but he can justify to himself that its ok to tromp all over my boundaries. When my husband does not respond to my truth I feel insignificant because it isn't acknowledged. When my husband does not respond in any way to my honesty, I feel devalued. Watchit Creole, your expectations are surfacing. Seriously, is expecting a simple verbal acknowledgment from him that he has heard any of my truth, spoken with honesty too much to ask for? When he wants to "share" with me, I make it point to look at him, to repeat what he's said.
When my H obsessively drops periodic hints and reminders that I contribute more of my paycheck so that he can "get some relief" I feel used--I feel like I'm nothing but a paycheck. I am MORE than a paycheck, I am more than a business deal to be closed. The lure of the co-dep. . .short term relief but the long term gain is hell.
When my H chooses to act in co-dependent manners, I feel discouraged. I am struggling with this problem, I know what a struggle it is, and even when I tell him that he his behaviors and choices are triggering my co-dependency, he can't acknowledge that nor does he make a real effort to stop the behaviors.
When my H acts like a pouty spoiled child, I feel annoyed. Same old song--I'm his wife, yet those behaviors make me feel like being he's putting me in the role of the "mother" . Dammit, I ain't ya mamma, I'm your WIFE. Supposedly your partner. . .
When my H shows increased attempts for physical touch and attention after we have disagreed and I am not happy with the situation, I feel manipulated. Yeah, lets kiss Creole's neck, lets touch her, lets switch from Mommy Creole to Wife Creole. Don't wanna buy that ticket for that train ride. . . .
I really hate to get this angry because when it reaches this point, I cry. Its been quite a while since the anger has been at this level. H still can't watch me cry about anything without telling me that I'm having a "pity party".
Lack of empathy destroys trust. Lack of honesty destroys trust. I am trying to live within the new boundary of honesty each day, truth each day. My responsibility is to be honest and truthful--his responsibility is to hear and react.
I think that I will curl up on the sofa early tonight. Bubble bath and quiet time are definately in order. I'm scheduling another session with the counselor for ME.
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Post by joyfulneurotic on Feb 2, 2006 10:54:06 GMT -5
Creole, I don't have time for a long reply, just a question. Have you guys done couples counseling? I would think this impasse you're at is a significant enough crisis to warrant intervention by a trained third party.
I'd really, really push for that if I were in your marriage.
jn
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Post by creole on Feb 2, 2006 11:14:57 GMT -5
Creole, I don't have time for a long reply, just a question. Have you guys done couples counseling? I would think this impasse you're at is a significant enough crisis to warrant intervention by a trained third party. I'd really, really push for that if I were in your marriage. jn Hi JN, Yes, we've done some joint counseling and are scheduled for more. Our counselor has ordered "Open Hearts"a Carnes book for us to work thru together; however, its been on backorder for the last 60 days and H doesn't want to go for joint counseling until the book comes in. He also hasn't gone for individual counseling; he doesn't feel that he needs to. I've called the counselor and will be seeing her independently to discuss this impass, and how I feel about this. Even if H doesn't plan to go back for individual counseling, I will keep my recovery on track. I plan to meet with her and to take the two books I've worked thru so that we can discuss. As always, my thanks Joyful. Creole
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Post by joyfulneurotic on Feb 2, 2006 11:28:59 GMT -5
Sounds like a good plan.
Have you tried other booksellers online to see if you can get a used copy somewhere maybe?
I'd really like to see both of you in with a therapist. Sometimes they can get a point across in a way we can't, because we're too close to the situation. Among other reasons.
jn
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