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Post by LookingUp on Jun 25, 2007 17:55:38 GMT -5
Hi Creole,
Congratulations on having that difficult decision. Sorry he grinched about it; that must be doubly frustrating. I wanted to walk down to Creole-country and ram his pipe with the disagreeable tobacco down his throat - what is he thinking of objectifying you when you're working your heart out to fix yourself and the marraige? Maybe it was a hook to see if you'd go back to the old way so he could stay in his comfort zone?
The fact he's taking over TWO months which you generously gave him to decide how to proceed on re-establishing your sexual relationship and he didn't immediately make the decision to want his wife in all areas. My ears are steaming in anger. If it was me, I would be so hurt and angry by his uncertainty.
I may be wrong, but it seems being in the feeling place may hurt temporarily - but it also means you aren't numbing those emotions with unhealthy behavior but truly feeling them, working through them and managing life in a healthy way. Yeah, sometimes life sucks! But if you work through the pain now - it won't pop up when you least need it and want worked through then. Sounds like a lot of growth to me.
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Post by creole on Jun 26, 2007 10:22:06 GMT -5
Today is another day, another opportunity for me to be the best Creole that I can be.
The Grinch was still in residence last night when H returned home from work. He told me that he had a horrible day at work and that he had suffered a nightmare twice on Sunday night. He said he dreamed that he was in a state of anxiety/depression and that he was beating himself up. He woke up when the pain of his self abuse became too great. After telling me that, he went into the house and ate a bowl of chicken salad then "poof" disappeared. I didn't think anything about it, I figured he was in the studio working on the mixing board. After about 30 minutes I went looking for him--he was asleep! 7:30 pm, and he is lights out. . . .checked out. I was ANGRY not because he was asleep but rather because he had simply "checked out", no communication, nothing. His best friend phoned and asked to speak with him and I told him he was asleep--imagine how shocked his friend was! His friend told me that he had given H some of his anxiety meds. . .I asked him to NEVER do that again, that if H felt so dammed anxious and depressed, he needed to haul his ass to see a doctor and that he didn't need to rely on his friend for any additional medication to help him "escape". His friend (whom I'm known for 30 years) told me that he wouldn't do that again. I just sat and "felt" my emotions -- mainly anger and sadness. I asked myself just how long I was willing to continue to condone this behavior. Damm the feeling place--I know that being there means that I am alive, and I can better understand why we want to self-medicate with alcohol, drugs, etc. but if I can face the emotions why can't he? Or perhaps a better question should be, "Why WON"T he?"
Looking forward to this evening's counseling session. It has all the makings of a rip-snorter. . . . . .
Peace and blessings,
Creole
I'm actually looking forward
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Post by creole on Jun 26, 2007 13:33:36 GMT -5
I think I will memorialize our email conversations of this morning. . . .
H:
"Unfortunately, I had another recurrence of the anxiety/depression dream last night. It was not as bad, in that it did not seem to last as long. When I woke up the puppy got up on the bed beside me and laid down with me, which was a very kind thing for him to do. I know that he knew I was having trouble. He stayed up there with me until the alarm went off. In fact, he lay down with me when I went to bed early and stayed with me till I went to sleep. I had more pleasant dreams the rest of the night, after the bad dream.
My brain was probably working at 80% yesterday. I had a lot of trouble following conversations. I was unable to complete a computer project last night, but this morning I did it right off.
I do not know where these dreams are coming from. I still think I am in a better place than I used to be. Maybe this is a process of purging? I can hope."
ME:
" I could and can tell that you are struggling with the depression/anxiety and it saddens and angers me to see you spiral down into those feelings because you become withdrawn and incommunicative. Did you take a sleeping pill last night? Friend phoned and told me that he had given you some pills of some sort. If your anxiety and depression are that devestating to you, perhaps you should make an appointment and go see a doctor yourself and get your own medication. Not being judgmental, just a suggestion. This cycle has been going on way to long and it continues to rear its ugly head on a fairly regular basis although not as frequently as it previously did. Without any communication from you, what am I to think? I am not a mind reader.
We both are in a better place than we have been in a long time, a year ago, or even a month ago and we are stronger individuals for all the work we've done. However, I think that the dream is telling you that you still have some unresolved issues/fears/anger to address and it might be good for you to explore what is causing you to feel this way. In my personal experience, the only way to purge is to identify the feeling, address what is putting you in the "feeling place" and then work thru the anger, etc.. What we resist, persists. . . . .YOU hold the keys to change and transform."
H's response:
"Any expression of anger, impatience or “deal with it yourself” coming from you when I have these spells is completely and totally inappropriate. I don’t call this upon myself, so there is no reason for disapproval, anger or impatience on your part. None. Puppy knew how to help me, and that amazes me. He was just there for me. All any depressed person wants—all they want—is for someone to just give them a hug or a pat on the back and say “I know you feel bad but it will pass. Hang in there.” That was all I could have hoped for from another human being, because that is all anyone else can do. I picked up on your anger and that is why I became non-communicative. You are decidedly not empathetic when I suffer like this, and yes it does make me angry because by now you should know better how to offer some help. For me not to become withdrawn and incommunicative, I do not want to perceive anger or aversion from you or anyone else. I cannot help it when my brain gets weak. Yesterday morning, if you had just showed a little tenderness and understanding, I would have been so much better. I try to help you when you need help managing your feelings about your family or your work."
Sigh. Seems like deflection to me. . . .feels like deflection to me.
Peace and blessings. . . .
Creole
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Post by whoami on Jul 18, 2007 23:57:30 GMT -5
Creole, I've been looking for you...are you ok?
I hate your blameshifting H's words to you...I am wondering about you. Yes I would call that deflecting and blameshifting to the max.
Need to get to bed and just posting between storm fronts....I hope you have found a way out..or if not, I just hope you are ok.....I'm still thinking of ya..and thank you for your hope for me. Hugs, Creole!
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Post by creole on Jul 25, 2007 16:40:30 GMT -5
Creole, I've been looking for you...are you ok? I hate your blameshifting H's words to you...I am wondering about you. Yes I would call that deflecting and blameshifting to the max. Need to get to bed and just posting between storm fronts....I hope you have found a way out..or if not, I just hope you are ok.....I'm still thinking of ya..and thank you for your hope for me. Hugs, Creole! Back for another post. Whomai, thanks for the post! I've been on the road again and back for a few days. I am still strong. I emailed FJ my last post & asked her for her thoughts; she responded: "Hon, there are so many things going on between you two that it's hard to know where to start. I'll try to write coherently, but I'm working under a deadline here at work and don't have any time to re-read your posts or edit this. I'm writing and hitting send. I think I'm actually a little frustrated with your counselor, to tell the truth. Granted I'm only seeing a small part of your sessions in these posts, but where is her direction to him? And to you, for that matter. Is she just allowing you to direct and vent, or does she have some sort of plan to get you two out of this spot? If you two have been in counseling for 2 years, you've spent a heck of a lot on therapy. I guess I have a bit of a problem with counselors who are only there to listen and validate without having a tangible plan and direction and goals. I'd like to see *her* plan. I mean, what are you paying her for? I realize she can't make your husband do anything, but she can say, "Look, piss or get off the pot, buddy. These are the things that are dysfunctional in your relationship. These are the steps we are going to take to deal with them. This is our timeline. Are you willing to go through with this? Sure it's a lot of work, but I want to know what your commitment is to the healing of your marriage." And what direction, plan and timetable does she have for you? I don't want to say that nothing has happened or changed or developed over those 2 years, but lifelong therapy isn't what I want to spend my time doing. A lot of counselors want clients to do just that, though. I wouldn't want to be a safe-sex fix for my H either, but I can see that he doesn't yet know how to express himself. That *could* be part of the problem, anyway. Where is he learning about objectification and the difference between a fix and making love? I doubt he can learn it from you... there's too much strain on your relationship right now for him to learn from you. Is he getting this learning, these tools somewhere? The whole situation about him being depressed and sleeping and taking his friend's med... Honestly I can see both sides of this. I've dealt with depression and it's a (expletive). Your mental energy to think through any problem is about down to zero. That's why you go to sleep whenever you can. That's why making a doctor appt is a difficult thing. That's why you'd take a friend's med for some temporary relief. And, honestly, the way someone communicates (tone, body language, words) can either make communication smooth or impossible. If you're frustrated or upset, I can see how he wouldn't have the mental energy to know how to deal with that on top of his own pain, and he shuts down. On the other hand, I get your frustration with him not being proactive to deal with his depression with his own doc. It makes total sense. I can also feel your annoyance at having to deal with a depressed person. It sucks, to be truthful. All I can suggest with that, is that he is telling you how he needs to be communicated with when he's in that state, and from being in that place, I agree with him. It takes some kid gloves to deal with a depressed person, unfortunately. It's difficult, but it's in your best interest to do so, because with empathy, a rub on the back and extreme, genuine gentleness, you're more likely to get him to come out of it, or go see his own doc. It's tough to do that when you've got so much other crap going on in the relationship. All I can say is that if you can't offer him what he needs at that point, then find your own serenity and walk away until you can. Because if you come at him wrong, it just sets a crazy downward spiral in motion and that isn't good for either of you. If the depression can be dealt with or if it lifts on its own (often through the empathy and love of a partner), some of the other issues will be much, much easier to work on. I think that working on the other aspects of the relationship before the depression will be fruitless if he is, indeed, dealing with clinical depression or anxiety disorder. How did the joint session go?" A good bit of time in our last joint counseling session centered on H's feeling that I had no empathy for him during his depressive bout and my feeling that he was trying to manipulate me into repressing what I felt. Damm, dealing with him is sometimes like playing with dynamite & matches--his sensitivity issues are HUGE--anger means you don't love me, so don't tell me you're angry Creole. Thanks but I decline. I've improved my ability to communicate to him that I am angry without breaking glass, or going into an emotional histronic raging meltdown. Thank goodness. I give myself a brownie point for that. H told me that when I get angry the ***** Parish redneck girl comes out. He knew I was a country girl when he married me. . .he knows that my family generally verbalizes their anger. Hell, for 27 years I couldn't verbalize my anger with him because of that screwed up co-dep programming. So glad that dammed tape has broken. Anyway, after addressing the feelings issues, we finished the individual Fourth Step inventory. Last night, we did the "couples" Fourth Step and we'll go see the counselor tonight. AGAIN. Like FJ, I am frustrated at the lack of a time frame with the counselor. I am frustrated with my H"s contentment to just go with the flow. Hell, if we weren't in joint counseling, I don't know that he'd go himself. He is VERY anxious about the impending deadline regarding our sexual relationship. While he admits that he understands why it is really unhealthy for me to initiate sex at this time, he wants me to take the initiative, be the initiator! His performance anxieties. . . .damm, damm, damm. I ain't buying that BS. I know what I don't need to do and going back to the sex addict ego mindset is not an option. H also still see me thru those sexualized eyes. . .he tells me what a beautiful woman I am, what great legs, but ". . .if you weren't overweight Creole, you'd be the total package." What a jerk--I AM THE TOTAL PACKAGE JUST LIKE I AM. Accept it. The total package called him on that (expletive). I reminded him that he asked me to accept that he is a pot smoking, sensitive somewhat recovering alcoholic sex addict. Damm. I have choices. . . . Yeah, I'm blowing off steam. . .off to another joint counseling session. H keeps telling me we're making such great progress. In some respects, yes, but in others, no. My daily reading, quiet time, is sometimes all that keeps me focused and centered. My family continues to be in crisis. . .on all sides and they all call me so that I can play the "White Knight" family role. Help me! Help! Ain't nobody gonna help you dahlin but yourself! Must go now. . . . Peace and blessings, today and always Creole
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Post by LookingUp on Jul 25, 2007 18:05:46 GMT -5
(((((((( Creole ))))))))))
Oh, my. It sounds like a lot is on your plate right now. I'm glad you have a job you enjoy and gives you some away time!
Throw a way the pink cape and let the chips fall where they may. My family of origin thinks I'm a heartless blob because I no longer wear the pink cape - they really aren't sure WHAT to do with me without my cape. That's the blessing of being the "black sheep" of the family. I can throw away the pink cape and not be their savior any more and I'm still accepted as the odd ball.
I was so angry at your husband about his weight comment. Sheesh, sounds like a p-head comment. You'd be enough..... IF. Aurgh. Sounds like my mom, too.... but I doubt she's a p-head.
I see FJs response about kid gloves - but maybe at the counselor's you can make an agreement that you'll kid glove for a certain period of time but as a couple he needs to set aside safe times for him to validate YOUR frustration with his depression. I'd feel really manipulated by that "you gotta be careful with me, I'm so delicate emotionally." Especially if he's not reciprocating by giving you a safe arena to express how difficult that is for you to do.
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Post by cflanders on Jul 26, 2007 15:56:33 GMT -5
Am I understanding correctly that your H's primary concern is resuming S with you and on his terms? I know you're venting but if you weren't - would you agree with the above statement?
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Post by creole on Jul 26, 2007 16:37:37 GMT -5
Am I understanding correctly that your H's primary concern is resuming S with you and on his terms? I know you're venting but if you weren't - would you agree with the above statement? Yeah, that's pretty much the gist of it. He wants to have sex with me and he says he understands how initiating sex with him would put me back into my own SA, but he just can't deal with the pressure to perform, that his own insecurities are so overwhelming. Damm, our mutally compatable addictions are what attracted us in the first place, made our early torrid sexual relationship so satisfying. Honestly, I don't want to go back there. Anyway, I gave him until 9/1 to initiate sex with me. INITIATE. I felt it was time that I set a deadline--otherwise who knows how long I might wait. As it is, I have my own performance anxiety fears. I'll admit, I'm scared. But, I don't wanna go down that road again, for him or any man. I asked him, "What if I were killed tomorrow, how would you manage your sex life? Go back to the compulsive addiction? Find another woman who had NO idea of how she's programmed and let her play the co-dep sexual spouse for you? Find a really young woman who has NO idea of what life, sex and relationships are about but who wants to use you for your $$? What would you do? You've gotta re-learn sex, I've gotta relearn sex, it can't be the way it was for either of us." He couldn't responsd. He still hasn't responded. Thanks for inquiry CF. You always ask me good questions! Peace and blessings Creole I
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Post by whoami on Jul 27, 2007 16:14:38 GMT -5
Creole, my H and I have been married 29 years too, and one would think, by now, they would give up on putting us in the Mother mode, wouldn't you?!?! I don't have kids but I sure have played the mommy role with my H. I'm getting a very short fuse for it too.
Your H sounds awfully hypersensitive and fragile, I would sure have a tough time with that one. And I hear you on the frustration with the counselors, sure have been there too. After awhile, it just seems apparent that they are in it for the money, and we just get more and more financially strapped while they tell us we are making progress! It's a very bad feeling, especially when we can't see their direction or game plan. I just got jaded on it. But I hope yours really does have a plan!
We are having to relearn sex too, as you know already. Stay with your quiet times, and your reading, and know I'm praying for ya too. (And you H...he needs to get a grip and deal with things it sounds like)......{{{{{CREOLE}}}}} Whoami
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Post by creole on Aug 28, 2007 15:29:57 GMT -5
Whoa! Hard to believe its been a month since the last post in my journal. Busy, busy the last three weeks. . .limited time at home.
Deadline is approaching. I am serene. H and I had a counseling session last night. He brought it up with the counselor--guess he felt safer with her to referee LOL. No need to referee. Same song, different day,
"Creole I need you to initiate sex. . .Creole you know that I can't. . .".
As I listened to him, I started crying. He asked me,
"Why are you crying?".
"Because I am sad, so very sad."
"Why are you sad Creole? I'm frustrated".
"Yeah, you're frustrated and so am I. Don't think you're the only one who has anxiety about this. . .and telling me that you're frustrated is preachin to the choir. I know why you're so frustrated--I set a deadline, over 2 months ago, and asked for some sign, some effort. The dealine is approaching and your anxiety level has increased.
You're asking me to step off back into my prior unhealty behaviors because "you can't". Dammit, I am tired of initiating. . .I had to initiate our relationship, I had to initiate sex, I had to initiate counseling.
You tell me that you don't know about flirting, courting, etc. I am here. You don't have to do a whole lot of that. What if something happened to me? How are you going to handle finding another woman to have a relationship with and then have sex with her if you can't even approach me your wife of almost 30 years?
I'm telling you that I love you, I will always love you, but if you and I can't get around this hurdle, our relationship as husband/wife ain't gonna work. Are you content, REALLY CONTENT to live like roommates? I am not. That deadline was for ME more than you. . .:
The counselor listened and affirmed what I'd said. He is really in a snitch.
Part of my heart really hurts for him. . .no one (other than the counselor) understands how emotionally damaged he is. . . .I understand that he is the only one who can change his programming but he has resisted, and the present reality is hard. Of course, I could go right back to my previous behavior. . . .but I think that would be a trip down the co-dep memory lane that I don't want to take. In hindsight, he had absolutely no issues with having sex with the SA Creole until I abused him. I've admitted my abuse of him, but I believe he is stuck in the "victim" role. Much easier and safer to be a victim. He has not admitted that he abused me. . .he probably never will. Another heart sadness.
Reality is difficult right now. I'm having to stay centered. . .stay focused, not get sucked down into the emotional feeling whirlpool. Not to say I can't feel, but I sure don't need to let any sense of guilt or "make it right" control my decisions.
I will be just fine. The answers/solutions will unfold in good time. I have no doubts!
Peace and blessings, today and always.
Creole
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Post by LookingUp on Aug 28, 2007 18:04:13 GMT -5
(((((((((((((((((((( Creole )))))))))))))))))))))))
My goodness, my friend, I don't see how you managed to sit through that counseling appointment with the calm you showed. While reading, I was on the edge of my seat wanting to run over and shake your husband until his teeth rattled. I am so confused how he holds his victim role almost like a scepter or nobility! Aurgh. You are in my thoughts and prayers as the deadline approaches. Glad your counselor affirmed you.
You are concerned about how he will regain a sex life if you leave - but are you concerned about how you will regain a sex life if you leave?
LookingUp
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Post by creole on Nov 26, 2007 12:22:40 GMT -5
Good morning, peace and blessings!
Whew, it took a few minutes to find my journal. Been such a while since I've posted.
Progress I guess--H did initiate sex two weeks ago. He later told me how he enjoyed making love and thats what he felt. . .funny, it didn't feel like that to me, just felt like sex. Guess it was because my eyes were open. Oh well. . . .
Been on the road very consistently. Still doing my daily work, prayers and meditation focusing on how I can improve myself and especially my spirituality, staying grounded in the present.
Oh, another GREAT opportunity--at our last counseling session, our counselor told us that she is now seeing a great number of women who are struggling with the co-dependency and their husbands' sexual addiction. She told me that I was the first one woman had counseled thru a spouse's sexual addiction but she is now helping quite a few. She said that when I went thru this, all I had for a support group was my online support (and I do say my THANKS EVERY DAY for this Board and the love, validation and prayers of those who supported me during my recovery). She now wants to start a support group and she asked me to chair it--she said that I could help so many of them, that I would be a great example of how recovery works. I was so humbled and I started tearing up. I told her that I was grateful for her belief in me, and that I would participate, but I felt that my job demands would not allow me to chair the group at this time. I have been praying about the group and I hope that we can get it up and running. . . .only God and time will tell.
(((HUGS)))) to all. Wishing you peace and blessings, today and always.
Creole
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 26, 2007 15:14:45 GMT -5
Wow, Creole, you got some lovin' - even with your eyes open. I'm sorry it wasn't mind-blowing, super-bonding experience. I think after months or years without - that probably whatever happens is going to be a bit of a disappointment. "You mean I wanted this long for.... this?" Since Mr. LU usually approaches in January or June (and it's been since Jan 2007), I'm wondering if the actual "event" will mean much.... I've rather turned off my libido and not sure I want to turn it back on for an annual romp in the marital hay. But.... I'm just blabbing now. I'm really happy it happened for you two, that you're still working on your marriage, that you're working on you, that you're working on your spirituality, that you're working!
That is sooo awesome that your counselor sees you as the poster-child for SO recovery. I'm glad you're going to get involved in a potential new group. You have so much good to bring to a group like that.
I've missed you.... but so glad you're at the place in your recovery you don't need to stay parked here. That's wonderful.
LookingUp
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Post by creole on Jan 2, 2008 12:29:02 GMT -5
Almost 2 months since I last posted. I am so grateful each day for all the blessings I receive.
H and I have finished the 12 step recovery program. There were times when I didn't think we'd get thru it, but we did. Our relationship is so much better--we still have the rocks in the path, but who doesn't? We are verbally communicating and H is trying to work thru the sexual issues with me.
I continue to do my spiritual work. . . .Marianne Williamson, Depak Chopra, are two that I'm reading now. . .in fact, I gifted several folks with copies of Marianne's books as Christmas presents plus two others got a copy of Kasl's book. Must share. . .you receive back what you give. I am so grateful that I can help someone now. I do not know where I'd be today without the support of so many women on this Board.
Hopefully, our Journals will transition to the new site. . . .
Wishing for inner peace, daily joy and gratitude and blessings in abundance in 2008.
Peace and blessings, today and always.
Creole
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