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Post by katmoi on Aug 7, 2007 21:28:09 GMT -5
Hi Mayberry - As an atheist, I won't be praying for you, but I will surely be crossing my fingers for you when you quit smoking, which should be every bit as effective as prayer. :-)
I enjoyed your comments about atheists, agnostics and M. Scott Peck, (for whom I have very little use.)
I generally go barefoot in the summer too, and for as much of the winter as I can stand. It's such a wonderful feeling of freedom. I rarely wear shoes or socks unless forced to.
Kat
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Post by Mayberry on Aug 8, 2007 5:50:23 GMT -5
Whoami & Katmoi: Thanks for the good luck wishes on the NOT smoking thing. Whoami: I don't know whether it's the placebo effect or not, but my "urge" to smoke seem minimized this morning. Hmmm. I will insert the NOT smoking thing into my journal here for those who are curious about Chantix and me.
Katmoi: I've found about two useful things from M. Scott Peck over the years, and the info I posted yesterday is one of them (the other is his AMAZINGLY (to me) insightful language on how communities are formed (published in "A Different Drum"). The stages of community building (something I've done a lot of in my professional life) seem right on target. While I think he just describes the phenomenon of the process groups go through to build community, I find it helpful to have language for such things, and he provided it in that book. Interestingly, one of the things he describes as necessary (and I agree) to community formation is the abandonment by each group member of the "need" to "heal and convert" others to their way of thinking.).
Barefoot gals rule! My family refers to the things at the ends of my legs as "hooves", not feet. It was pretty cute this summer as Little Berry very solemnly asked me to check the progress of her "hooves." Not sure her mother will appreciate this new influence, but I found it pretty uproarious.
Thanks to you both for visiting my journal.
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Post by libby on Aug 8, 2007 8:28:29 GMT -5
Hi Mayberry, I quit smoking a few years back. I started knitting, every time I felt the urge during those first 2 weeks I pulled out my needles (still do) and kept my hands busy. I went to all sorts of buildings where smoking was not allowed. The library, The Mall, The YMCA, the list goes on. I have my health and a beautiful Afghan to show for my quiting efforts. It is so very worth it to quit.
Libby
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Post by Brad7 on Aug 8, 2007 9:11:30 GMT -5
I have found myself smiling at some of the firmness with which some folks proclaim their atheism or agnosticism. While I have limited use for M. Scott Peck, I find a lot of truth in what he has to say about atheism being a stage of spiritual development and, often, a far more honest and seeking stage than what Peck calls "stage two" (basically summarized as "I have the answers and you don't."). For myself, I find I often have far more in common with and understanding of folks who proclaim their lack of faith (while showing exceptional spiritual seeking and growth) than with some of those Peck would put in "Stage two". For my own future thinking and reference (and the reference of others who might be interested in this topic), here's a nice summary of the stages of spiritual growth, as explored/defined by Peck: www.factnet.org/Stages_Of_Spiritual_Growth.htmlI am a little confused about this. It seems to be a reply to a post about Scot Peck, but I cannot find the orinal post where scot Peck is discussed. I read a few of his books years ago. I found them of interest then, but I reently found the books again and reread some of them. I found upon the second reading that they were a little strange in places. He seems to be obsessed with evil sometimes. Maybe the books hit a nerve or a trend when they were written. Best wishes Brad
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Post by Mayberry on Aug 8, 2007 9:12:15 GMT -5
Thank you for the encouragement, Libby. I appreciate it, as well as the practical suggestions of what you found helpful. I suspect I will be doing a LOT of pulling weeds; I'm never tempted when gardening. Jinn
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Post by unbreakable on Aug 8, 2007 9:51:10 GMT -5
Seems we have something in common Mayberry. I'm struggling so badly with the cigarette thing at the moment, weird thing is I never WAS a thumbsucker when I was a kid ...
Good luck, they are insipid little things, I haven't smoked since Saturday, but I had to really hold myself back last night.
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Post by LookingUp on Aug 8, 2007 14:08:30 GMT -5
For my own future thinking and reference (and the reference of others who might be interested in this topic), here's a nice summary of the stages of spiritual growth, as explored/defined by Peck: www.factnet.org/Stages_Of_Spiritual_Growth.htmlI'd never heard of Mr. Peck. I found the first half interesting - didn't find time to read the second half. As a Christian, I've been studying my Bible to formulate my own concept of spiritual growth: I'm currently studying both Song of Songs and the Mosaic Tabernacle - it's amazing how they overlap on spiritual growth. I found it interesting (odd?) that Peck compares spiritual growth as the same - no matter what religion or God is worshipped. It would seem to my uneducated-in-this-area-mind that there would be major differences. Are you familiar with the works of Dallas Willard or John Ortberg? I have several of their books on my want list concering spiritual growth / spiritual transformation / spiritual formation. LookingUp
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Post by LookingUp on Aug 8, 2007 14:10:05 GMT -5
Thank you for the encouragement, Libby. I appreciate it, as well as the practical suggestions of what you found helpful. I suspect I will be doing a LOT of pulling weeds; I'm never tempted when gardening. Jinn Bet you'll win "community yard of the week or month" as you adjust to your nicotine-free life. I'm so encouraged that you've chosen to give up smoking. It encourages me that some day my husband may reach the same point. It's great you know what works for you to help stay tobacco free. LookingUp
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Post by Mayberry on Aug 8, 2007 15:25:36 GMT -5
Brad: It was actually a note to myself. I did post about Peck elsewhere on this board, but that was about community formation. I think Peck has really changed for the worse, over the years...but he had some insights that I find useful in "Different Drum." LookingUp: Peck has become, as I understand it, a Christian who embraces all religions. Some would find this a contradiction. As an aside, I will add that from my experience with other religions and discussion with other religious leaders, most religions and spiritual movements have very similar "maturity levels" among their believers/followers/adherents. However, I posted this because I have met a lot of what Peck would describe as Stage 2 Christians with whom I had nothing in common (and many of whom were just, IMHO, an embarrassment to the word Christian)...they seemed to me to be in love with "having the answers and beating others over the head with those answers." I have my own opinions as to why there seem to be more and more of these "Christians" running around, but I won't indulge them here. I just was musing the other day how many of the self-declared "non-religious" or "anti-religious" here are actually showing the sort of spiritual seeking common to what Peck calls "Stage Three" of spiritual development. The famous Christian author C.S. Lewis was NOT a Christian for much of his life, in fact, viewed himself as an atheist, as I recall. www.greatcom.org/resources/skeptics_who_demanded_a_verdict/chap02/default.htmWhen I posted the Peck link, I was just amused (and posting to myself) on how much more I have in common (emotionally) with many people who say they are non-believers than with many who are insistent that they are believers. Again, it was mostly a note to myself. This is a topic I may want to explore in my journal later.
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Post by Mayberry on Aug 8, 2007 15:28:53 GMT -5
Unbreakable & LookingUp: My heartfelt thanks for the encouragement re: NOT smoking. The big quit day is coming Tuesday next...but I am already scaling back, so the encouragement is not wasted. J
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Post by LookingUp on Aug 8, 2007 16:30:31 GMT -5
The famous Christian author C.S. Lewis was NOT a Christian for much of his life, in fact, viewed himself as an atheist, as I recall. Last year I sent my sister C.S. Lewis's "A Grief Observed" on CD for her birthday. I had read "Screwtape Letters" years ago. Now she laughs that she may be the only Christian who was "saved" by listening to an Anglican who had been dead for half a century! She had been a very devout athiest prior to hearing that audiobook. She was interested in the CD because of the parallels of loosing a father young and his grief of loosing his wife.... my sister was contemplating how she would handle when Mom passes on (since Mom was 90 then). I then listened to the CD's and I'm flabbergasted (but relieved) she choose Christianity based on the teaching in that book. Which goes to show how little I know about how/why people choose Christianity. LOL. Of course, not everybody has my weird testimony of switching from satanism to Christianity because of (1) a tarot card reading I didn't like, and (2) my boy-friend cheating on me. I prayed this prayer at 3:30 AM on Saturday 11 October, 1975, while driving around in my 1963 Chevy station wagon with bed in back (for camping): "God, if there is a god, I give you one month to make my life better. If you can't do that then I'll try Hari Krishna. Amen." A sincere, but not a traditional beginning to a new life. Obviously, The "american" god (as I considered Christianity prior to my conversion) - met and exceeded my request and I've tried to serve him since... sometimes successfully, sometimes fraily, sometimes falling - but continuing on the journey. LookingUp
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Post by Mayberry on Aug 8, 2007 19:09:28 GMT -5
LookingUp, I nearly feel out of the chair with this! The extortionist approach to God! OH MY GOODNESS THAT IS HILARIOUS!!!!! It's funny, isn't it, how we find our paths to the Divine. Thank you for sharing this! J
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Post by Mayberry on Aug 9, 2007 12:23:22 GMT -5
I stole this list from JohnG's journal, and posted it earlier in my journal as a reminder to come back to it...
Patterns and Characteristics of Codependence
These patterns and characteristics are offered as a tool to aid in self-evaluation. They may be particularly helpful to newcomers.
Denial Patterns:
I have difficulty identifying what I am feeling. When I was young, and until the age of 16 or so, this was a problem for me. Given my rather tumultuous childhood, that's not a surprise. It was not safe to feel anything. This is no longer a problem in my life. I minimize, alter or deny how I truly feel. I do not alter or deny how I feel now (see comment above). I don't think I minimize much, and I try to avoid over-emphasizing how I feel (more of a struggle). I perceive myself as completely unselfish and dedicated to the well being of others. I certainly am far from "completely unselfish" but I am struggling mightily with "dedicated to the well being of others." My work for the majority of my adult life could best be summarized as "social work". Homeless folks, abused children, health & wellness programming. This area may be an area of weakness for me.
Low Self Esteem Patterns:
I have difficulty making decisions. Nope. I judge everything I think, say or do harshly, as never "good enough." Nope. But I do judge almost everything I think, say or do. Sometimes it's good enough, sometimes it isn't. I am embarrassed to receive recognition and praise or gifts. Yes. This is true for me. I am getting better about it, but there is still a feeling that I don't deserve the gift, the praise, the recognition. If they REALLY knew me....yadda yadda yadda. I do not ask others to meet my needs or desires. This was once a huge problem in my life; my parents conditioned me to not express needs or desires. This is no longer a problem in my life, 99 times out of 100. I value others' approval of my thinking, feelings and behavior over my own. Again, this was true for me once. If someone named me something, that was what I was. It is no longer true. I still value others' approval, am uncomfortable knowing when I don't have it, but can live with those feelings and, sometimes, do something constructive in terms of evaluating why I might not truly deserve approval in a certain area. I do not perceive myself as a lovable or worthwhile person. Nope. I am relieved to say that I find myself lovable and worthwhile. Not every detail, not every nuance, but overall, I do find myself worthwhile and lovable.
Compliance Patterns:
I compromise my own values and integrity to avoid rejection or others' anger. Mostly, no. I am very sensitive to how others are feeling and feel the same. I am very sensitive to *imagining* how others feel, and often find resonance in what they express that they feel, or what I *imagine* they feel. This may be an area of weakness. I am extremely loyal, remaining in harmful situations too long. Yes. That would be me. Not as bad as I once was, but VERY vulnerable in this area. I value others' opinions and feelings more than my own and am afraid to express differing opinions and feelings of my own. Not afraid to express, but I have been struggling with a new understanding that my intuition is often "spot on" and I tend to ignore it, only to find to my chagrin that I should not have. Area of vulnerability. I put aside my own interests and hobbies in order to do what others want. Area of weakness. Not complete weakness, but weakness. I have a tendency to rearrange my interests, my work to go play Mighty Mouse. I accept sex when I want love. This does not speak to my condition. It might have once (early 20s), but it does not now.
Control Patterns:
I believe most other people are incapable of taking care of themselves. Hmm. This is rough. I believe most people don't take good care of themselves. Incapable? No. Unwilling to? Yes. Possible area of weakness. I attempt to convince others of what they "should" think and how they "truly" feel. My husband recently called me a scanning electron microscope. I truly think he meant it as a compliment. I do have graph paper for brains. I analyse what people say and what they do, and I am always tempted, and often succumb, to trying to identify their trends for them. Many people have told me this is helpful. I have to keep close guard that I do not batter others with my logic, my insight, my attention. I become resentful when others will not let me help them. 99 times out of 100, no. I freely offer others advice and directions without being asked. 70 times of out 100, yes. I lavish gifts and favors on those I care about. This was once 100% true. It is now about 50% true. Still an area of weakness. I use sex to gain approval and acceptance. I have done, but no longer do. I have to be "needed" in order to have a relationship with others. Hmmm. I am boggled by that. If the question is asking "do I need others dependent on me to have a relationship with them?" the answer is no.
I have been thinking a lot lately about the subject of shame. Many years ago, I wrote this performance poem for a man who allowed himself to be abused by women, physically. I still find a lot of value in here...many of the conversations on this board have stirred this poem to memory...and thinking about why we accept certain people in our lives and how we explain away the indequacy of what we're "getting" in the relationship with feelings of "I don't deserve better than that." I'm the worst sinner. Yep. It's me. We all feel that way at some point or another, I suspect. Renaming, reinventing ourselves is hard work when we're around others who refuse to let the old model, the old naming, go.
RUMPELSTILTSKIN
You know the real you would make me run away ‘cause you know about running. You run to the room with the greedy Princess and you say, Guess. Guess my name. All day the Princess has been thinking of the queen-mother, that smothering wench. The Princess looks dazed; you give her this hint, Power and peace intertwine. I’m an old stone wall I’m a nourishing vine. The Princess shrieks, she screams, she cries. Get out, it won’t be! You can’t! You will not break my heart in half!
You trudge your lone path back to the woods where dryads and sylphs surround you and chant, Stay here with us. You’re lovely. You’re wise. Twine into our hearts. Strengthen our lives. It hurts when they sing. It’s a physical ache. These aren’t your names. They’ve made a mistake. But the Princess is powerful, wise and all-seeing. She’ll give you a name, so back you go—fleeing.
It’s dark and the Princess has been twitching under the comforter, dreaming of the king-uncle, that molesting so&so. You lie on the floor beside her. She’s more beautiful than ocean glass; she’s fragile as a teacup. Guess, you whisper. Guess my name. You sing to her softly. I heal your broken. I float in your heart. Take me in. Make me a part. The Princess is wide awake now, with the covers to her throat. Get out, it won’t be! You can’t! Your breath turns my stomach! You erode me! You steal! Your touch is a painful ordeal!
Back to the forest you go. The genies are dancing under the moon. They stomp: Hullo! At last, you’re here! Sing for us, won’t you, with your voice golden clear? And you, dwarf heart, hide your face in shame. You don’t deserve their attention; they must be playing a game. You slink back to the castle, but the Princess is out drinking with squires. You chain yourself to her wall. You swallow the key. And there you sit, waiting.
‘Cause you love folk who treat you unkind. Folk who withhold. Folk who lie. Folk who beat you when you push your face near. You don’t think it odd she names you villain, ‘cause you deserve it. Yeah, you must be relieved she’s only seen that much and still hasn’t guessed just how rotten you are. Dwarf-hearted, faithless, half-blind, unloving. How can she stand you? You’re flat-footed, ugly, lost in dreams. She can call you back. Well, she can distract you, guessing at your name, your dirty secret name, the sum of your unworthiness, the tap, tap, tap, tap of your hollowed-out insides.
Goddamn, it’s a relief to be around folk who have you half-pegged, who’ve seen past all the surface sweet to the slime-full lump of your foetal reabsorbed twin, the evil twin who carries your name in a ball of sharp teeth and hurtful claws. And there you sit, waiting. Perhaps she’ll come back. In time, some other princess may come. It doesn’t matter. It’s the pain you call home.
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Post by Mayberry on Aug 9, 2007 12:36:08 GMT -5
Note to self: I have been having a real struggle with... not insisting on knowing what Mr. Mayberry is reading to help him toward recovery not insisting that Mr. Mayberry find a "mentor" on this board not insisting that Mr. Mayberry go see a therapist specializing in addictions
What Mr. Mayberry does/does not do is HIS business. I have my own crap I am working on. When I see myself indulging in these thoughts, I need to RUN AWAY from them. They are not helpful nor are they healthy.
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Post by LookingUp on Aug 9, 2007 13:01:57 GMT -5
The Rumplestiltskin poem was awesome! You have such a beautiful way of putting your thoughts into words.
I like your note to yourself: that is a huge struggle.... it's like agreeing to hold the nail while he swings the hammer again - and you hoping THIS time he won't break your heart in millions of pieces again. That trust is so hard to give. It's the kind of trust Jesus gives each time we screw up. It's full of grace, compassion and love. It's not earthly, human trust - it's a gift. May God gift you with that precious commodity of trusting after betrayal - and may he give you peace that passeth understanding as you step out of your comfort zone to trust.
LookingUp
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