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Post by Johannes on Nov 9, 2007 12:22:45 GMT -5
choselife,
Thank you for writing. I have been thinking about your current situation a lot, and I'll try to express some of my thoughts soon.....
Peace,
Johannes
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Post by sandpaper on Nov 9, 2007 15:01:40 GMT -5
Hi CL,
It's good to hear from you.
I too have followed that wrong voice time and again. And I certainly can't say that voice is completely gone. It's still there I'm sure, and probably always will be to some extent, because, like or not, that voice is part of me. I think your quote hits the nail on the head: We all have "right" voices and "wrong" voices, pulling us in opposite directions toward various ends. Sometimes we understand the underlying motivations of those voices and sometimes we don't. In the PA context, we know what the wrong voice wants and why: an escape from the pain of reality. And we know what the right voice wants: to recognize the delusion of the wrong voice and to find the strength to face -- and enjoy -- life for what it is.
Like most everything in life, getting "good" at something takes practice, patience, and the strength to get up and keep going when we fall along the way. This should apply here as well: each time we succeed in ignoring the wrong voice and following the right voice, we become a bit stronger -- physically and mentally -- so that when we reach that fork in the road we have a little more strength to head in the right direction. I think you're on to something with this, CL. While the old adage of "practice makes perfect" is probably an overstatement, practice certainly makes better.
Good luck, my friend, and keep us posted.
Sandpaper
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Post by Stillhopeful on Nov 10, 2007 6:38:26 GMT -5
Hello CL,
When you posted recently about your wife's post-menopausal attitude to sex, I didn't realise how devastated you were by her revelations. There is a lot that can be done for post-menopausal difficulties having sex and perhaps you could work gradually with your wife toward getting some professional help.
Try to stay positive at this time and trust that things will improve. What do you need? You need more information about how things could improve. So it's now a matter of searching for that information. Information about how other men deal with their menopausal wives who have pain that limits their interest in sex. Information about how your wife's comfort can be helped. Information about how else you can manage to connect with your wife that is satisfying and meaningful to both of you. Information about how to get back into the swing of recovery. Why not declare a period of information gathering so you can make the best choices?
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Post by choselife on Nov 10, 2007 6:55:05 GMT -5
Thanks, Johannes, SP and Still.
So last evening, instead of going to temple together, my wife suggested we go upstairs to bed rather than go out. To make a long story short, as I truly was not particularly in the mood anyhow, I asked her if she wanted a massage. She happily agreed. I gave her a nice slow, non-sexual massage. Really took my time. She was quite happy with it. And proceeded to give me an about 99% non-sexual massage, which I enjoyed. I wasn't in a particular sexual mood anyhow, so that pretty much eliminated my frustration. So part of the equation to make things better between the two of us is of course (duh!) my initiating giving my wife things that she has told me that she likes (such as massages). Thats a darn good starting point. I also suspect that if my wife were to want to have any kind of sexual activity with me, it will more likely happen if she feels cared about and taken care of. And it did make me feel good about myself to give to her. The only caveat is that the reason I wasn't in the mood was because of how frequently I had "taken care" of my self. So, I could easily let last night feed into more taking care of myself. Well, all in all, it was an encouraging night, and I expect will continue to be helpful. I also expect to get better in giving massages, and if I'm smart instead of spending time feeding my PA/SA, I instead will read about giving massages, maybe get a good video or something.
CL
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Post by Johannes on Nov 10, 2007 18:25:00 GMT -5
Choselife,
Here's what's making me uneasy: if I were in your situation, my addict voice would be telling me, "Oh, perfect! It's actually the best thing in the world for all involved if we go to a massage parlor once a week. It'll allow us to 'get rid of our sexual tension,' and then we'll be in so much better shape to truly be caring and loving to our wife, since we're not distracted by sexual urges."
When I act out, I create the illusion for myself that I'm being accepted by someone else on a sexual level--but by paying someone for "sexual favors," I only cement my sense of unattractiveness.
OCL knows very clearly that the women working in massage parlors don't care for you as a person. They do not love you.
If I remember correctly, masturbation is not on your list of bottom line behavior--so, a blunt question I have, what is it that makes acting out so much more attractive than, say, masturbating to loving thoughts of your wife?
I apologize if I'm crossing any boundaries here.
It must hurt so very deeply to feel your wife's sexual rejection. Acting out only numbs that pain, as you know of course.
Let's all recover,
Johannes
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Post by Johannes on Nov 10, 2007 18:27:45 GMT -5
Also, from what you wrote, it's clear that your wife does yearn for physical intimacy and tenderness--as Still said, exploring together with her how both of you can connect in a meaningful and satisfying manner, is so important.
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Post by choselife on Nov 11, 2007 8:09:55 GMT -5
You didn't cross any boundaries, Johannes. All that you wrote made sense. What especially struck me was:
After reading that, I just realized for the first time how what my wife yearns for is in many ways more significant than sex, as sex has the physical aspect to it (hence it can be enjoyed without an emotional connection; but what my wife yearns for can only be enjoyed with someone you love and who loves you.
Regarding MBing to thoughts about my wife, I have done that before, and in the past, it has just led to escalation, because I'm looking for a more erotic fantasy (hate to say it).
CL
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Post by Johannes on Nov 11, 2007 19:35:06 GMT -5
I'd bet you have the same yearning as your wife has.
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Post by choselife on Nov 12, 2007 7:06:26 GMT -5
That is true, Johannes. Anyhow, the weekend was good, and of course, easy to keep out of trouble when I have no time alone. I am going to make sure that I have a good, clean week. I have too many positive things in my life to do otherwise.
CL
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Post by witness on Nov 12, 2007 7:13:40 GMT -5
Keep taking those baby steps down the path to freedom!
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Post by sandpaper on Nov 14, 2007 0:51:26 GMT -5
Amen.
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Post by Ian06 on Nov 14, 2007 4:15:13 GMT -5
Good talking to you on the phone today, CL. Let's keep it up.
Take care.
Ian
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Post by Stillhopeful on Nov 15, 2007 7:13:59 GMT -5
Just to say I'm reading and caring...
Still
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Post by Johannes on Nov 16, 2007 18:45:27 GMT -5
Okay, chosey, in case you're not doing that well right now, let me just loan you OJ for a second--he's saying, regardless of where you are in your recovery journey, share your life with us!
Let's all recover.
Johannes
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Post by choselife on Nov 17, 2007 6:39:37 GMT -5
I'm actually doing ok. Not perfect, but ok. Have not done any real life acting out, have not mb'd to P. I have watched P for short periods of time. [trigger]Because I had gone to massage parlors, I find it very difficult to stay away from a particular web site where guys talk about their experiences in local places, which includes places I have gone to or could easily get to. It is then easy of course to fantasize going there, and then actually going there. I have always limited what I have done there, probably mostly because of health risks, but walking into these places is of course a real bad idea. Not exactly good for recovery, and of course, its always possible a place could get busted while I was there. These things do happen on a somewhat regular basis.[/trigger] I live such a jeckyl and hyde existence. I am able to compartmentalize the bad stuff pretty darn well, at least well enough for my spouse not to have a clue; for other people not to have a clue; to do be more than competent on my job. Its like the game I play is how much bad stuff can I get away with and still function ok, rather than stopping the bad stuff so that I can discover what I am truly capable of. Because one thing that I have not been able to rationalize away is the strong conviction that I can never discover my true potential in any healthy area of my life if I am even flirting with danger. It takes time away from me, it takes positive energy away from me; it takes creativity away from me; it takes true giving for the sake of giving with the expectation of not getting something back away from me; it impacts significantly working out sexual issues with my spouse away from me (i.e. at the least, I could deal with her menopausal issues far better for both of our benefits if I was doing well in recovery - how purely SELFISH of me; it takes maximizing the closeness with my daughter away from me (and as she gets to have more and more of an independent life, as exemplified by her second year away at college; next year a semester in Ireland, it will get harder and harder to attain that degree of closeness. So, I do get that charge, that feeling of successfully scratching the itch, from acting out. And I expect that I always will. But look at the price. Seems like I am selling my soul to the devil, the devil being my unhealthy sexual urges. Now to change the direction of this post. My work is going exceedingly well. I found out through the grapevine (a mother of one of the children I work with) that one of the three owners of the agency I work for thinks that I am absolutely great. I have at least a couple of parents that think I am great. They could not possibly appreciate more the level of skill I have with their children; the relationship I have with their children; the energy and creativity I consistently display with their children; how much I help them acquire the skills they need to get the most out of their children. Although I have far more growth that I can achieve, I have come a very long way. I am the team leader on all of my cases. I have supervision on some of the cases, but even when I have supervision, because I am always on the right track, I truly set the direction of the cases, the curriculum, etc., so other than some minor tips, I run the show. For those that don't know, the children I work with have been diagnosed to be somewhere on the autism spectrum, and they are typically from the age of slightly under 2 years old to about 3 years old. I am typically the first person to work with the children and their family subsequent to diagnosis. I entirely set the tone for their treatment. I am the one best in the position to provide motivation; to teach skills; to set a realistically optimistic tone; to address all concerns. What an amazing job, tons of responsibility, tons of influence. How many people have jobs that are so meaningful as mine? How wonderful it would be if I allow myself to fully apply myself, which I can only do if I work recovery well? Yet, I have been overall willing to settle for just being good. I have let things slide; I know what I can get away with and still do a good job. So because of my "hobby", I don't get to the research and then figure out how to apply it as frequently as I would like. I only browse one of the unbelievably great message boards relevant to my work, rather than post questions, to which I would undoubtedly get some very helpful replies. Well, you get the gist of what I am saying. I have chosen to hold myself back. Its all in my hands (non-intentional pun. CL
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