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Post by JohnG on Feb 5, 2007 8:00:19 GMT -5
TL6E,
I am sorry to hear the news. I was very concerned last Friday because what you described was a huge red flag.
I am still concerned reading your last post above. You say, "I make this promise here and now. Tomorrow, I am going to leave everything behind, all my negative feelings, and be completely placid with every individual I come across. I am going to start conversations with as many people as I can. That is my ultimate goal. I will not let anything, and I mean anything get to me."
You go on to describe other resolutions. Being isolated is a bad thing for an addict to do, but being sociable and getting out will not solve this problem.
I am going to be very frank because I personally don't see you as better off today than you were two weeks ago. The fact that you held on a little longer this time does not imply sobriety. I once hung on for 30 days by myself but there was zero recovery going on. A slip only puts us in a better place if we learn something important from it. I think that you need counseling and/or some sort of group recovery. You say that you are in a SA group but you never talk about it - at most you say, "Looking forward to the next SA meeting..." but then you never talk about the meeting. How did it go? What did you share? What was the topic? Did you even go? Do you have a sponsor? Are you doing step work?
Your posts have been getting skimpier and skimpier, your only real substantial posts are about near-slips, I just don't get the sense that you are doing real work. And I don't get the sense of urgency that should be there when you have a problem - I don't hear you saying, "what more can I do?" "I shared about my near slip at the meeting and they said this..." "I called a friend from my group..."
Your latest proposed solution is all about getting out there and socializing... This is not the core of your problem.
You make the observation, "the frustrating thing is that when I'm sober, I feel so bad, that I can't get out there and socialize." This is because you are not sober. Abstinence doesn't make us sober; as has been pointed out in this forum many times (correctly, I think), sobriety is abstinence plus recovery. I honestly can't say going back and re-reading your posts (as I have just done again) that I get the sense that you are getting better as you rack up days.
Please accept all of my comments in the spirit in which they are given: with love and respect.
Your true friend and ally,
JohnG
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Post by JohnG on Feb 5, 2007 8:29:22 GMT -5
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Post by Stillhopeful on Feb 5, 2007 8:40:06 GMT -5
To John:
Tom has set some goals for himself, and was in the habit of setting and following a daily schedule.
He has also consulted with a sexual addiction specialist and is preparing to enter a program in a couple of months when his work schedule permits. His work schedule currently does not allow time for the SAA meetings.
He is trying all kinds of things, so it is a bit unfair to suggest he has only been trying to stay sober.
Still
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Post by sisyphus on Feb 5, 2007 9:30:53 GMT -5
I'm going to follow CL's example here, and say, ok, sure, one can see this negatively, and note the mis-steps, all that. There's truth in that, of course. But I really think that sort of thinking feeds the addiction. The positive, TL6E, is that you HAVE made progress, and you want to make more progress, and you can and will. Leave the past behind, because that is where it is and where it needs to stay - in the past.
I've used this Zen parable before: Two monks come across a beautiful young woman at the edge of a river. She is afraid to cross, so one of the monks picks her up and carries her across. She thanks him, and goes her own way. The second monk rebukes the first, and tells him that as a monk he should have no contact with women. The first monk looks at him and say, "Brother, I put her down back there on the river's edge; you are still carrying her with you."
Be the first monk.
Peace, Jacob
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Post by JohnG on Feb 5, 2007 10:05:58 GMT -5
Still,
I missed the post where Tom said he couldn't go to SA meetings - I saw on the 31st that he was looking forward to his next meeting but didn't mention it again. I am still not finding where he says there is a work conflict. If indeed he is unable to go then his presence here becomes all the more critical.
Tom, I don't mean to be unfair or harsh. My comments can be taken in whole or in part or may be left entirely if they are not useful.
I have read your journal in its entirety and I am stating very frankly what comes to my mind as I read it. I am not suggesting that you are doing nothing. But I cannot honestly say that I get the sense this is the journal of a person who is seriously committed and working really really hard to do whatever it takes to get better. That you have done some work and really want to get better - of that there can be no doubt. But go back twenty pages in the journal archives and you will find lots of people like that. That is not a nasty comment - it is a serious suggestion. Go back and look and read the journals of those who have just vanished without so much as a good-bye. When you look at your own journal - is it really that different than theirs?
I have over a decade in AA and have some familiarity with all of the subtleties of tone that distinguish those who are being rigorously honest with themselves and others from those that are still in some sort of denial. Tom, the very first thing that I thought when I read your comments about resolving to be more sociable is that they had so little to do with your immediate problem that their presence constituted some sort of avoidance of the real issue. And that issue, to me, is a lack of real work.
If you have a conflict with work and can't get to meetings then I missed that in your posts. But a work conflict can't explain your posts becoming less frequent and substantive before a slip. Go back and re-read you own journal from the beginning. To anyone who cared to see them, there were signs when you were heading down a dangerous path.
This is what you wrote on the 2nd after disclosing that you had a near-slip (or slip - you seemed unsure yourself it was so borderline):
"I think the biggest problem, is that I don't consider the things I like to be wrong. I consider them to be wrong when I waste my time getting aroused over the videos, or acting out with a mistress. If I were to be in a relationship, I would love to do those things with them. I don't think its wrong.
This is where it gets hard, because I am forcing myself from something I like because I can't find a relationship, but knowing if I do find one it can be better than anything. It is extremely frustrating."
To me, the above SCREAMS "lack of acceptance." You are externalizing the problem - "if I had a relationship all would be ok..." Have your read about how PA warps the way that we look at women? You have admitted that you are obsessive when you think about women - in the Gym, on the street, you objectify them. If you think that a relationship will solve these problems then you are gravely mistaken.
The fact that you are not seeing this yourself suggests a lack of honesty. I don't mean to suggest you are being deceitful but rather that you are avoiding the hard work of being self-critical. I don't mean critical as in "getting down on yourself." I mean a rigorously honest and healthy self-criticism that, when combined with action, leads to meaningful growth. If we want to get better and we don't have access to a counselor now, then we have to do as much as we can ourselves.
These are my honest opinions and observations. I would really rather spend my time doing something other than writing this post. I do it in the sincere hope that is may be helpful.
If you want me to go away you have but to say the word. But I will not say, "keep up the good work" or make any other comments that are not in line with my honest opinion.
Your very true friend,
JohnG
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Post by larus on Feb 5, 2007 12:27:29 GMT -5
That is what eventually made me see I have to recover. No options.
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Post by JohnG on Feb 5, 2007 18:52:19 GMT -5
Please check in with us soon TomLincoln.
Stay safe.
JohnG
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Post by Stillhopeful on Feb 6, 2007 4:37:52 GMT -5
Tom,
How about sharing what is going on in your life? You have friends here who care about you and your happiness and recovery.
all the best!
Still
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Post by tomlincolnsixecho on Feb 6, 2007 6:29:07 GMT -5
Ok
Firstly I do understand JG that you are being honest and selfless in your comments. After all I can't say I've ever read someones journal from start to finish even if mine is only Seven pages long.
I must say first thing, about 20 days ago now I was fed up, and I wrote to Stillhopeful I said I need help, I have a problem, and I would appreciate any help you have to keep me going. I then got through Seventeen days clean from MB, objectionable for P, but It was far better than doing it on my own.
2. I had been constantly in contact with Stillhopeful during the whole time of my sobriety.
3. I went to see a counselor, Something I've never done in my life. It was recommended to me that I do it, I didn't argue, I just did it.
4. I made efforts to watch only television programs that didn't have triggers in them, For example Sport, as in the Australian open tennis final, the Simpsons (Walking out during commercials. Documentaries. I did get caught up sometimes, But I was trying.
5. I formulated and put into action, communication building, with friends and family, It started off strong, but it slowly abated with time as I came closer to the slip.
6. I set a whole lot of goals, 10year 5 year 1 year and one month, while I was strong I was looking at them every day and trying to understand how I would come to achieving them.
7. I went to my first ever SA meeting, IT went well, I was hesitant to getting out of the car but was grateful for it.
8. I constantly made efforts to realise when I was looking at women, and stop it. I wasn't too successful at this but I was aware and trying.
9. I made efforts to start talking to new people at work, we have 20 new people at my work atm and I'm going around talking to them all one by one, and was during the 17 days.
10. I set daily to do lists, and was following them.
I may not have described them in my journal fully, But these are the things I was doing, and are continuing to do.
As with work, I am on Ten hour shifts this week, I worked Twelve hours on Saturday, I'm working 12 hours a day Six days a week for the next Ten weeks. I don't have the money now, or the time to be going to the SA meetings, or counseling. My every intention is to at the end of my work, to get counseling and go to the SA meetings.
The last post I wrote was very lengthy, and I just decided to keep on writing exactly what came to mind. It was scrambled I know, But it was how I felt, and explains what I would like to do to achieve this. I'm trying to find new ideas, by writing on the moment, I can come up with new ideas that may be helpful in my recovery. Its also important, that If I didn't care, I wouldn't still be on here.
I do accept your constructive criticism, However what makes it extremely difficult that in that criticism, you offer no real advice for me to take on board, other than telling me that I am failing, and that I'm not trying hard enough. Now where am I to take that?
TL6E
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Post by JohnG on Feb 6, 2007 9:07:49 GMT -5
TomLincoln,
My observations are based exclusively on what I can read on the board. Detailing your activities as you just have gives me a better sense of what you are doing and your efforts are considerable.
I think I have given you a lot of advice but for now I will say a few things more directly:
I would recommend, for now, as much contact with addicts as is possible - either through a group program (perhaps not possible now) or through this board. Face to face is best but this board is a close second. I don't know of many addicts that get better without being in contact with other addicts.
In AA, for meetings to have any utility I must show up and share and listen to others. I need to share frequently about my recovery as well as my struggles. I would write (here) more about what you are doing each day regarding your recovery. This does three things - it places other board members in the position of being accountability partners, it helps you keep track of what you are actually doing or not doing - and it helps other addicts see what is or is not working for you.
I, for one, would like to know what you got from your SA meeting. And I think it would be helpful for you to detail what things you may have captured (if anything - it was just one meeting, right?). For example, did you get any literature? Have you read it? Did you identify with the other members? Did you get any phone numbers to help you? If not, can you swing one meeting sometime soon to get at least a couple of numbers - explaining your situation and that you need some help to get through until your work permits you to attend?
Do you have any other literature? I got Patrick Carnes's book Out of the Shadows. I am very skeptical of self-help books but this book is solid - it draws an accurate and easy to understand portrait of the addicts mind and the way that it betrays us over and over.
The things that you list that you are doing in your recovery are all good. My only caution with the things presently on that list is to avoid "futurizing" too much. It is good to have goals, but today's recovery efforts must come before all else. As you say you don't write about most of them in your journal. My advice would be to write about all of them. Each day describe what you have done well, not so well, or not at all in detail. __________________________________________________________________________________
I am going to give you one example of one aspect of our problem and some of the work that has to be done to address it. My plan is not your plan, but any plan, to be successful, has to involve real work:
You say you are trying to not look at women so much. This is important (critical for us really) and yet very difficult. But in your journal I really only see you address it on the 31st. The same day, I said, "yeah, I am dealing with the same problem." Did you come over to my journal to see what (if anything) I might be doing to deal with it? Did you ask me how I was dealing with it? I am not saying I have or had the answer - I am saying you didn't seem interested in finding out if I had anything that might be useful to you.
If you have this problem and you say in your journal, "this is hard, I am not having much success," you give the rest of us the opportunity to help. If you say little to nothing you give us (and yourself) no opportunity to share. If you wait till you are in a near-slip it may be too late for us to get through. Often, by the time someone is engaged in activity that are not even sure whether or not is acting out, it is too late. They have prepared themselves mentally for the slip and are blocking out all other voices.
Likewise, if you visit a lot of other journals you can see where others are having success. In my case I have spent a lot of time on the problem of staring at women. It was only because I read a journal where the poster talked repeatedly about his struggle with this problem that I realized it was my problem too. So in my case, I am always aware that this is going to be a challenge when I go out on the street. I tried "bouncing eyes" but was only half-satisfied. They were still mini-triggers, and I could feel my brain trying to suck in as much as it could on each bounce. I spent a lot of time thinking and reading.
I realized the question is of paramount importance - that if I do not find a way to deal with it, the viewing of women on the street in a sexual way will lead me back, inevitably, to P. I have to do whatever it takes to retrain my brain. So I have been attempting to not look at women at all on the street. No bouncing, because before I look, when they enter my peripheral vision, actually before they enter my peripheral vision, I say to myself, "when a woman enters my field of view, I will look away." I do not allow that image of that woman to reach the center of my vision. Difficult you say? Damn near impossible. I did this in the supermarket the other day and stumbled around looking at the floor, at the shelf, at the floor, at the floor, at the floor, at the shelf. I do not pretend to go through life this way. I just want to see if I do this for a while, what effect does it have on my outlook? Well, for now, it has helped. Because when I am not engaged in this exercise, I still have the idea, the awareness, close to my heart. And this is an experiment that I will repeat. It may not work for others, it may not even work for me but if it doesn't, I will try something else. And I will write about that. If that doesnt' work, I will try something else. And so on.
That is just some of the work I have done on that one issue. My way does not make it the right way - it is just an experiment after all. But if there is one universal truth for addicts it is that this takes a lot of work. You said, "I constantly made efforts to realise when I was looking at women, and stop it. I wasn't too successful at this but I was aware and trying." Ok, but what were you doing? If it "wasn't too successful" then you obviously need to try something different. How can anyone reading your journal hope to help you if you don't tell us, in detail, about these efforts? ____________________________________________________________________________________
On the question of advice, I think that I have offered you plenty in my posts, if you want to see it. If I say, "you are not posting much," then I would seem to be suggesting, "post more." If I say, "your posts seem to become less frequent and less substantial before a slip," I would seem to be suggesting, "losing close contact with the board is dangerous and here are signs you can look for in yourself." Do you want me to go on? There is a lot of stuff there if you want to see it. Are you really being honest (with yourself) when you say, "you offer no real advice for me to take on board, other than telling me that I am failing, and that I'm not trying hard enough. Now where am I to take that?" Is that really what I was saying to you?
I want to say again that I don't want you to take any of this stuff as a downer or negative or anything like that. It is not. If you can get anything useful out of anything that I have said then my time was not wasted and neither was yours. Pointing out what seem to me to be problem areas is not being negative. If you and I were building a house together I would want you to point out if you thought that I was putting a foundation stone in the wrong place. And either you would be right (in which case the correction of the problem would render the house more stable) or I would discover that I had set it right to begin with (in which case I would have greater confidence in my work).
I hope you come over and visit me more at my journal. Your place is nice but mine isn't too bad either.
Your very tiresome but sincere friend,
JohnG
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Post by Stillhopeful on Feb 6, 2007 9:53:51 GMT -5
Hi Tom,
I'm just stopping by to offer some encouragement. I am really glad you posted your list of actions taken, and John has made some very good suggestions in response.
Keep working on it, and best wishes,
Still
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Post by tomlincolnsixecho on Feb 7, 2007 6:00:26 GMT -5
Thanks StillHopeful, I actually take Johngs posts positively, because I think it's destructive to have everyone say "Ok you have slipped, but you can do it, try again". Its too easy going, and you end up back to square one every time, because you know people are so very accepting. So for this I think it is good to get constructive criticism, because It gives you the chance to think about what you are and are not doing.
I might be very busy at the moment, BUt I am making strides to change my addictive behavior. I have started to read your Journal JohnG From start to finish, It might take a few nights, But I owe it to you for taking the time to read through mine, That i admire.
I have to be completely honest, and I hope I don't hurt anyone, but my reasons for posting on the boards for other peoples journals was to give me something constructive to do in my to do list, in my plan. I did read maybe a few posts and make a post. But as the days went by and I came closer to the slip, my responses got shorter and I was posting out of habit more than my concern for others. I wasn't really giving anything, and I wasn't getting anything. I must say though, a major part of the reason, was that I was alone, and I was trying to relate to as many people as possible, and post in their journals so I could get some help, as I knew I needed it, and nobody can deny how good it feels to get some good advice in your journal.
I have gone over my goals. I understand what you mean JohnG but I believe its important to strive for something, or you have no idea where you are going, and when that happens, I have a lot of disbelief. I'm going over my plan tonight, I set my todo list yesterday, tonight for tomorrow. I am going to the SA meeting tomorrow, And I promise to report on how it went, that is a commitment.
I'm making an effort to be more sociable, I'm going to plan something on the weekend with some people from work, all I can do is try.
I'm starting to do not look at women. I'm finding, that my eyes flash across at a woman, in my peripheral vision without me even thinking about it. But at this moment I am blurring my vision, not the bouncing, but blurring and looking away. I successfully did this at the gym on Tuesday. I'm making ground on this. And yes in my Seventeen days clean, I didn't once stop myself looking at women on the street, gym etc
When I find I am looking at a woman briefly I'm saying to myself, I don't need this and then I look away. I'm improving.
I haven't watched television tonight aside from one documentary that my housemate had on.
I haven't got a lot of time tonight, Its getting late and I need to go to work early tomorrow. I've done a lot tonight, and got what I wanted to get done, I'm impressed with what I've done.
Before I go to bed I am going to read my goals, and especially the goals for the next month, I need to also write down daily if I am making the effort for these goals, and if not why, and how can I start doing so.
Tomorrow, I will read more of JohnG's journal, I will write down all my goals, My plan, My SA meeting, What I have done for the day. I know a big killer for me has been browsing online for nothing in particular. And this Is why I must only use the internet for my posting, I have to be strong on this.
Cheers, and thankyou for hanging in there for me. I'm not afraid to ask for help. And I will listen if it means getting myself back on track.
TL6E
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Post by JohnG on Feb 7, 2007 10:08:48 GMT -5
TomLincoln,
Thank you - for sticking around and not giving up. I get really scared sometimes about my recovery - fear is an issue for me - and think sometimes I hammer on people because of my own fears. Other people's slips shake me up because I know that I am just as at risk and I really don't want to go back.
I have re-read some of my own journal and thankfully I see some changes happening. I have tried to be honest from the beginning but I have gained some insight into how I continue to lie to myself and resist recovery.
I am really pleased you will be able to get a meeting. If you can work up the courage - ask for some phone numbers... if you share, just explain that it is tough to attend now and if anybody can give you a number to call after the meeting you would really appreciate it. These links can be lifesavers.
I am really really happy. Your post has made my day. Please keep up the good work and remember that when I am calling anyone out I don't mean to be discouraging. And I am eternally grateful to all of you for being here to help ME.
And now, to be true to form, a bit of advice: on the goals question - it is important to have them, just make sure they don't distract you. They can easily become a kind of day dream that doesn't have much to do with your recovery today. In AA they say first thing first. A goal for five years - say, a house, family, more job security, quality sobriety, greater maturity, etc. - is great but if you don't stay sober today you will have trouble seeing that goal become a reality. So I place today - staying clean, doing some recovery work, talking to another addict or posting here, paying a bill, taking the car in for new tires, work, shopping for food, doing laundry, etc. - doing today well ahead of all other things. We say, "but of course, I know I have to stay sober today!" but often with the next breath we start talking about tomorrow.
I am not suggesting you are doing this - I just want you to be aware that it can happen.
Now I will shut up.
Your friend,
JohnG
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Post by imtheoneincontrol on Feb 7, 2007 21:16:58 GMT -5
TL6E,
Just an idea, and something that's working for me. I've been setting incremental goals for myself. My eventual aim may be to never look at pornography again, but I need to start more modestly and gradually get used to not surfing for it. Granted I tried that on my own and it never worked. But now that I'm posting here on an almost daily basis, just a little bit, usually in my own journal, I feel I'm very focused on my goal. If I can just make it there, I know I'm improving, and that's sometimes all I think I can really ask of myself. My goal is 30 days right now, and I'm working on day 15. I feel much less obsessed with giving up porn altogether and I'm getting back to life, learning to forget about it.
While I admire your efforts to quit looking at women so much, I also think you might give yourself a break a little more. Women are beautiful, and you don't need to sexualize them so much to find them attractive. Of course glaring and fondling with the eyes should be avoided at all costs. But I think you'll be better at meeting women if you acknowledge their attractiveness.
Best, itoic
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Post by tomlincolnsixecho on Feb 8, 2007 7:07:22 GMT -5
Thanks IT1IC
I thank you for your support. With the acknowledging of a beautiful woman. I don't want to look at it like this. Because I am trying not to be shallow, and to find the inner beauty not external.
The SA meeting tonight was very interesting, I actually got scared with the topic of suicide being mentioned. I have never thought like that at all, but hearing about how it affects people, It gave me a shock, And I do not want to be in that position at all when my SA has gotten so deep. I am taking this as a massive wake up call.
I listened to some interesting people share their problems aswell as mine. One thing I noticed that people echoed my concern with sobriety, that other factors become more prevalent. I was glad that people could relate to it, one of these things being deep resentment. also the feeling of anxiety, which I had never realised what it was all about. This being when I would be sober, I would be trying so hard to socialise, make new friends, but nothing would seem to be working, and deep frustration would set in because nothing seems to be working.
I also gathered that, In what I thought to be bizarre fantasies, in my domination, many other people have other fantasies, that can be related to my obsessions. And JohnG. I realise now how I can relate to you with your obsession with incest. I never even read that before to be honest, but I can see how important it is to take notice of other peoples posts. There is so much that can be learned.
I also got the phone number of a member at the SA meeting, I can contact them if I have any problems. I'm looking positive, and I aim for another full day of sobriety, and hard work.
Cheers
TL6E
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