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Post by timoteiy on Sept 11, 2007 8:23:47 GMT -5
Amaininful How's it going
I'm glad that you have fear around being a father. I think I was numb when I first found out. Now that I am seeking change, I would like to get in touch with my childhood, or inner child if you will. It would help to be able to relate to my son and daughter.
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Post by MrOuch on Sept 11, 2007 10:56:12 GMT -5
AMIF,
It will come out. I can tell you that from experience. I lived in a p-fog at times and I missed whole parts of the kids daily activities. It seemed like there were times in which I just went through the motions of the day to get to the point where I could feed my lust. I participated in the kids day but I was only there in body not in spirit. I spent so much time covering my tracks and trying to keep my secret p-world hidden, that I didn't have energy to live in the real world. That's no way to be a father. I could only feel lust. I could only see temptation. Now, I see how much I lost. I can't ever get that part of my life back. It's gone. In its place is a greater appreciation for every moment I spend with my wife and children. So get all that p-crap out of your life and keep it out. You wife deserves it and so does your child.
Peace
MrOuch
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Post by rockwell on Sept 11, 2007 13:13:02 GMT -5
Amaninfull,
Pending Fatherhood, and Fatherhood itself has a way of pushing our moral compass back to the straight and narrow path. Fatherhood causes us to re-asses our lives and behaviors. We want to be the best we can for our kids. Another reason for us to live moral lives and forsake the wide road to destruction.
You are doing great. Keep it up. Your journal inspires me.
rockwell
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Post by amaninfull on Sept 11, 2007 18:22:50 GMT -5
Unhappyheart,
I would love to talk with you about these things in your journal or PM - I visited your journal today and it looked like you hadn't been there yet.
I have started to get back to a routine that I tried to establish earlier in the year: wake up earlier (having been a notoriously late riser my entire life, I consider anything before 7am to be early), meditate for 20 minutes, and do semi-yogic stretching for 20 minutes. It's a good way to start the day, and over time I've experienced a subtle but real change in my daily consciousness as a result of meditation. (I experienced that three years ago when I managed to string together a bunch of consecutive days of meditation.)
The thing that I get from meditation is a sort of distancing myself from my thought patterns. The ability to actually observe my thought patterns. Which itself is a rather calming thing. And it enables me to feel more in control of my thought patterns (and thus, behavior patterns). I'm convinced it has direct application in the effort to beat addiction. It can be a powerful weapon in the arsenal.
I am a little nervous about being able to continue it once the baby arrives, in four or five weeks. We shall see.
AMIF
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Post by rockwell on Sept 12, 2007 8:40:15 GMT -5
I do have some advice about "when the baby arrives." It is definitely a transition.....a great transition but a very big change. Make sure you get a lot of rest, take naps if you need them if the baby is up during the night. And keep meditating - you may need to do it during the baby's nap. At first they sleep quite a bit.
You will love fatherhood! It has a way of transforming your life for the better. Its a miracle.
rockwell
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Post by unhappyheart on Sept 12, 2007 17:38:03 GMT -5
Neh thanks amaninfull. I have been to my journal I just didn't feel like posting much. My feelings have been a bit too unstable and I've been getting sad too quickly. Too sad to write most of the time. I usually get better if I do something like drawing or.. like... answering questions to a free recovery course.
Your meditation solutions sounds much like praying but not. I think maybe I should pray and do taichi.. Energy has been way too trembley and I nu like that.
I just wish there was a way I can be happy like all day. Cause while siting on in my courses I feel humiliated and useless. And it's been bothering me. There wasn't a single course day where I felt actually happy. I was crying in all of them. I feel so lost and purposeless, and the fact that I don't have a job is adding to it. I want to have fun but I feel like I lost.. or something. I am semi-repeating most the courses, either because I have prior knowledge or I couldn't complete them from last year due to financial reaons, and confidence reasons. It's a real shame cause they were easy. But something happened to my brain last year and it shut off like for an entire year. I feel like everyone just advanced a million miles forward and I am still way back. It's making me feel so horrid. I can't stand it -_- If anyone asks me how I am doing in masters I feel so judged. And even with the friends I like around me I can't feel good. I unno how to explain this anymore.
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Post by unhappyheart on Sept 12, 2007 20:25:21 GMT -5
Neh I wanted to apologize for ranting lots in your journal, and I also wanted to thankyou for the support. So here's a little post saying that I am sorry for teh rants. Meh mood has been kind of resonatingy lately. And I am really thankful for all the support, and I am cheering you on
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Post by amaninfull on Sept 13, 2007 14:08:20 GMT -5
Hi, journal.
I've been posting some stuff elsewhere that seems also to belong in my journal.
Here is one thing: -------------------------------------------------------------------- Unhappyheart,
I hope you are doing all right today.
I wanted to let you know a little more about my experience with depression/anxiety. I suffered terribly my whole life. I finally got to the point, in my late 20s, where I looked deep inside and realized that life was not worth living if I was going to be miserable much of the time. I saw then that I had two choices: a) end my life, or b) do whatever it took - anything and everything - to heal.
What I found was that there was no magic solution. The solution was to do the hard work, day after day, week after week, of coming to know myself, learning how to change my thought patterns, learning how to change my patterns of action and reaction, learning how to relax, learning how to stay focused, learning how the world works (as opposed to how I thought it *should* work). Embracing reality instead of running away from it.
And slowly, very slowly, my depressions became a little less severe, and lasted a little less time, and became a little less frequent. This happened almost without me noticing it. I would despair each time I felt the familiar feeling coming over me again, thinking I would never be rid of it. But as I learned how to think a little differently, act a little differently toward people, do things a little differently, my sense of satisfaction slowly grew. Very slowly.
Finally, about eight years after I had that serious talk with myself, I realized that I couldn't remember the last time I had a bout of serious depression. And I have not had one since.
Yes, I face challenges in life, difficult situations. And I face unexpected sadness, even tragedy. And yes, I do feel sad, sometimes profoundly so. But that feeling of falling down into a pit of blackness - I have not felt that in over 10 years. I feel now that anything that comes my way, I can handle.
Of course, one of the things that I could not handle was my addiction to online porn and sex chat. That was still an escape, and it was a door that I could not seem to close. So even though I was free from depression, I was still shackled to an addiction that was still damaging myself and the people I loved. Finally, 49 days ago, I had another serious talk with myself, and I closed that door.
I cannot make a recommendation to others about antidepressants. For myself, I have always believed that the process of healing from depression was one of growth, spiritual growth, and has resulted in some kinds of wisdom that I may not have gotten had I taken the shortcut that is offered by antidepressants.
Ultimately, I believe, the only real work that we are here for is to know ourselves, know our world, to somehow find meaning in our lives and create some measure of peace and satisfaction for ourselves. (Paradoxically, this seems to be possible only when we can stop thinking of ourselves and start thinking of others.) This is, I believe, what we were put here for - to figure it out for ourselves. Any shortcut is just cheating ourselves of that experience.
I am glad to hear that you have identified some things that make you feel better, that are positive activities, that make a contribution to the world: your art and your music are two things you mentioned. My advice is to throw yourself into them as much as you can. Use them to learn about your spiritual self. Use them to express those things that can only be expressed in that way.
I am a songwriter, and I think of it like alchemy: you are taking the plain dirt of the ordinary daily world, and you are running it through a process of refinement, until what you end up with is gold - a work that, if you are truly lucky, may inspire others.
Lastly: learn to relax. I am by nature a little tightly-wound, and that is one reason I was prone to anxiety (I remember lying in bed with my heart racing, just thinking about doing something in the world that others would consider the simplest thing). I learned relaxation exercises, and I practiced them frequently, and I still practice them. I highly recommend you do the same. Breathing exercises, meditation, yoga, tai chi. (I have also found physical exercise to help calm me down quite a lot.)
----------------------------------------
I am glad I had cause to bring those thigns up. My life is full and busy now - I feel like I am finally in the kind of place I've always wanted to be in, and I just want to go go go - but I don't want to lose that connection to my inner life that was so strong when, well, when that was all I had.
Thankfully, songwriting really helps me to keep that connection, and although it's something that comes and goes, it's never gone away for good. I am even now in the midst of writing some new songs. I absolutely guarantee that I am spending time now on music that I would have spent before on porn and sex chat. That's kind of like the difference between spending your money on cocaine or investing it in government bonds.
Right on.
AMIF
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Post by amaninfull on Sept 13, 2007 14:31:24 GMT -5
Well, this is a lot for one day, but I had this thought, and if I don't write it down now, maybe I never will.
It was prompted by something I saw in Rockwell's journal. About how he is beginning to realize that the things that cause him pain are generally things that make him feel inadequate.
That has been true for me to the nth degree. And it tied in with my anxiety and depression, in ways that are still somewhat opaque to me but were very real and very deep.
From a long time ago I was familiar with this feeling that I would occasionally get, a feeling of complete blackness, utter despair, terrible fear. When I was old enough to try to describe the feeling to myself, I used these words: "it felt like I didn't exist." It felt like I didn't exist. Imagine that, if you will.
I thought of it as "the worst feeling in the world." That was another phrase I used to describe it. The worst feeling in the world - not just the worst feeling I've had, but the worst possible feeling that anyone could ever have.
It felt like the bottom dropped out of everything. There was nothing solid, nothing real.
Over time, I gradually began to recognize the kinds of things that triggered this feeling. And I noticed one pattern that was quite consistent: whenever a girlfriend would mention an early or "exotic" sexual experience, I would immediately plunge into that feeling. This didn't happen when someone else mentioned such a thing - there might be a twinge, but it wasn't so deep or so terrible. There was something about that situation in particular.
I have some ideas about why that might have been. I had very confusing, anxious, and guilty feelings around sex from a very early age. I had virtually no sexual life (validation of my own sexuality) until I was in my 20s. All these things, and more, were compounded by the usual American male neuroses around girlfriends' sex lives before I was on the scene.
The salient fact is that it was not only an awful thing to experience, but because it made me feel so desperate, my reactions were quite insensitive, and caused relationship damage.
It would be interesting to get to the bottom of what caused me to be susceptible to that feeling; but what's more important is that I ended up "beating" it. Again, it was a very gradual process. First, I recognized the feeling. Then, I described the feeling to myself. Then I started noticing situations that brought on the feeling. After a while, I was able to tell the other person what I was experiencing. This resulted in some dialog, which, rather than pushing us apart as my reactions had previously done, actually brought us closer together.
Eventually the charge of this feeling was reduced a little bit, and rather than "the worst feeling in the world," it became just another bad feeling. Now, it's hard for me to imagine a situation that could result in me feeling that way again.
This is tremendously liberating.
AMIF
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Post by amaninfull on Sept 14, 2007 18:07:15 GMT -5
This is a post I was about to put up in a certain Accountability Circle thread, before I realized I needed to first be a member of the Circle in order to post:
---------------------------------------------
Hi, guys,
I was poking around for a long time yesterday looking for this thread. It features posts by some of my favorite people.
I think I'll weigh in a little bit on the masturbation thing. And this won't be my usual "I know the answer to this one!" kind of post. (If you think I'm insufferable now, you should have seen me in elementary school...)
I think I've still got a problem with masturbation. I don't think it's this big fat destructive kind of problem the way that online stimulation/sex chat was, so I'm not feeling awful about it, but I think I've got some changing ahead of me.
I'm not compulsive about it. (Well, not sure what the clinical definition of compulsive masturbation is, but I'd be surprised if I fit it.) I don't do it every day. I certainly don't do it accompanied by porn.
But, it is always accompanied by fantasies. And these fantasies are mostly pretty pornographic - that is, objectifying, psychologically charged...not, uh, models of loving interdependence exactly. And usually, even if they don't start that way, I end up "driving" the fantasies...going from scene to scene in search of a bigger charge. Which can lead to some fantasies that I'd have a hard time admitting to just about anyone - which can result in some funny feelings.
So there's that.
And also, though I am getting better about communicating my sexual desires to my wife, I think I sometimes masturbate to "take the edge off" and avoid initiating sex with her. So there's still an element of masturbation allowing me to avoid greater intimacy with my wife.
So I do believe that at some point I will choose to be sober around masturbation, too.
On the other hand, I don't see myself ever being dogmatic about it. I have been frankly really surprised coming to this board at how porn and masturbation are treated by a lot of people as equivalent. Not just related - clearly they are - but equivalent. Virtually the same. It's been an eye-opener for me. I can't see ever getting to that point. There are some concepts that require a leap that I don't think I'll ever make, and that's one.
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Post by t on Sept 14, 2007 18:57:04 GMT -5
This post is really interesting and timely...see my post called "What is your opinion of this" in the General section...it's still pretty new, and I don't know if there will be much discussion, but I thought Mayberry had some interesting things to say about it...I'm hoping for more opinions...
My opinion is that your version of mb could be a hindrance to experiencing your relationship with your wife in full...I would suspect, as you said, that others would say that there's not much difference in the porn in your mind vs. the porn on the screen...I don't agree 100%, but I agree at least 50%...I don't think it has the same intense, almost desperate quality that viewing porn has...but it seems that now it is your "substitute" escape...and since I think the mind is powerful enough to hurt you or help you, I have to believe that it's probably not in your best interest to do this...
In the thread I directed you to, I also have a question about mb...it is similar but different...I would appreciate feedback if you are so inclined....BTW, congratulations on a GREAT run of sobriety...I am hoping to do the same...
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Post by amaninfull on Sept 15, 2007 0:37:35 GMT -5
Well hey, when is masturbation *not* a timely topic, t?
Yep, like I said, I think it's hindering me at this point, so I'll probably tackle sobriety on it, probably after I've done 100 days porn-free.
("Others may say" as they will, but I say there's a significant difference between the porn on the screen and the porn in my mind: I was spending hours every week watching the porn on the screen, often hours a day. The amount of time and energy I put into had some pretty nasty results. I spend minutes a week watching the porn in my mind, and the consequences, therefore, are not nearly as severe.)
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Post by choselife on Sept 15, 2007 1:13:57 GMT -5
AMIF, I'm really glad you posted in my journal. You are one of those people I have wanted to make contact with, but had not gotten around to it. I'll PM you about my work, as it is a bit off-topic.
I had been meditating fairly regularly, and you expressed well what I got out of it, simply put "I am not my thoughts".
Very well put. I'm certainly not there yet, but I have made progress in this area, and the benefits are amazing. None of this can take place without sobriety, as nothing results in me being more unfocused than when I am actively "using" or even struggling with using. Very often, I would act out because of wanting to get out of this unfocused state, and 98% of the time, I was more focused after acting out. And that was a big part of my cycle.
CL
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Post by MrOuch on Sept 15, 2007 10:45:08 GMT -5
I would disagree with this statement. Although you may be wasting less time reviewing P images in your head, I think dwelling on such things is harmful on many levels.
In my opinion porn in any form (web, magazine, video, remembered, etc.) is bad. We could debate the religious implications of it, but I don't want to hijack your thread. But for no other reason than from the moral standpoint of how it has corrupted our society, porn is evil.
I remember early on in my recovery trying to sort out the my position on porn and the mental images I still had in my head. Was it lustful or harmfully to dwell on those stored up images? Then I read an article by prof Robert Jensen at the University of Texas. [trigger]Let me warn you, this article contains some VERY BLUNT triggers. If it offends you please let me know and I will remove it. I moved the link because some found it Very, VERY triggering. Apologies all around. It's an article entitled "Just Prudes." (If you're looking to google it.)[/trigger] It gave me a clarity of understanding about the porn industry and my role in it. Today, I choose not to recall those images, because they sadden me. Funny how looking back, I realize how this galvanized my opinion on porn. In my opinion allowing if I were to allow myself to fondly dwell on porn images locked in my brain, It would be the
Just my 2ยข
MrOuch
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Post by amaninfull on Sept 15, 2007 16:12:51 GMT -5
Gosh, folks,
I'm against porn. I really am.
And I think that my masturbation and the fantasizing that goes along with it are harmful. I really do.
So, uh, you can maybe stop trying to convince me of those things in my journal here.
Thanks.
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