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Post by mrbister on Nov 13, 2007 10:07:53 GMT -5
Hi petitjean. Sounds like you're having a lot of difficulty actually quitting. I advise taking something like RR more seriously. Not because I do, as I don't use it. But the thing here is that, from what I can see, you haven't put your strength into anything structured yet. If you want to stay clean you need a structured idea of what you must do in order to keep clean. Perhaps your immediate dismissal of RR was less your own opinion, as it would seem to have been to you, and more your addict-self deluding you - convincing you subconsciously that it is a worthless idea. I know you have set out for yourself a goal, to not use P, and defined it, but I think you need to deliberate your decision more and decide exactly what you want to do and how you want to do it. If the NG is a trigger for you then as soon as she's in view enticing you close your curtains, or go to a different room without a view. Do something. But while you're in a non-addict frame of mind make a conscious decision that whenever you get an urge you will immediately find something else to do, and whenever any thoughts enter your mind that are enticing to the addict immediately stop yourself from taking those thoughts any further and think about something else. It can be anything else whatsoever.
Your journal is tough reading, because I can empathise. It made me want to reach out and try to offer some kind of help, try to stop you from falling back into the trap. If it happens too often it is all too easy to simply continue, and worse it can demoralise you. That is a terrible addition to the already unenviable task we all have of fighting off addiction. I plead with you to look deeply and find a mental strength in you that will stop you from entertaining any kind of thoughts and urges related to P. I'm not sure why your journal has had such an effect on me, but I feel really strongly about it and don't want to keep reading that you have slipped once more.
There's so much advice on here about how to avoid urges and thoughts that lead to slips that I won't bother to offer any myself (except for what I've already said), but please look into it and take it on at a deep level.
Look at what the addiction is doing to you and to your life. If you don't stop it will only worsen. I hope that you can find it in yourself to overcome your urges. I will be paying more visits to your page. I hope I won't see sny more words to the effect of "I slipped" again. Good luck petitjean, I really wish you all the best.
P.S. I know this is your journal, but I think it might be a good idea to use the trigger censoring device more often. I haven't been tempted myself, but a good deal of what you write in a plain to see way is incredibly provocative when you think of how simple a trigger can be and how quickly it can cause a slip. I'm sure you would do anything in your power to avoid your triggers. It's just my opinion like the rest of my post. But I'm really only trying to help with everything I say. Bye for now.
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Post by petitjean on Nov 13, 2007 19:00:21 GMT -5
1 full day porn free
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Thanks for dropping in mrbister. Many wise and kindly words there and it will take me some time to digest them all.
Regarding structure, I'm sort of following the Orroz programme, which I will summarize or translate in a future post; I say 'sort of' because I've only done the easy bits so far. The next step is to find a psychotherapist; there isn't one on his recommended list in my area and I don't know who can recommend me one. Even if I found one, to be treated at a reasonable price here you have to go through your GP first, which means having to speak to him about the problem, which I'm nervous about...
On the NG issue, I'm tackling that in more or less the opposite way to what you suggest, ie. if she starts doing what she does I take a deep breath, do the Orroz clench, and busy myself in a rather obvious way in a part of the room where she can clearly see me. That way, she closes *her* shutters - which is what people normally do in these situations, right? I don't see why I should hide or flee because somebody else is making an exhibition of themself. Though admittedlly hiding or fleeing may sometimes be the only option. But the good news is, no new slips on that front at least.
I take your point about the trigger icon; though I'm never triggered by my own journal others may be, and I kind of like to know I'm being read. It gives me that extra sense of responsibility. However, it's important to me to be precise and honest about my pattern of addiction - this is about the only place I can be at the moment - and that includes awkward detail. I know not everyone wants to go to that level.
I have more to say but I'm tired and will call it a night.
petitjean
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I WILL NEVER USE PORNOGRAPHIC MEDIA AGAIN AND WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND (I typed this out - no copy and paste!)
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Post by petitjean on Nov 14, 2007 13:40:54 GMT -5
2 full days porn free ------ Regarding structure, I'm sort of following the Orroz programme, which I will summarize or translate in a future post... Actually I don't need to translate the first part - the immediate, emergency advice - as Orroz thoughtfully provides that in English: 1) Start by throwing away ALL of your magazines, books and pornographic photos. 2) Delete ALL of the pornographic files, images and MPEG files from your hard disk.That was the second thing I did. 3) Remove ALL of your subscriptions to lists of erotic mail.That was the first thing I did, plus subscriptions to websites. 4) Delete ALL bookmarks of a pornographic nature.Done (just dealt with one I'd forgotten!) 5) Delete ALL the emails and addresses of your cyber sexual partners.Done a long time ago. 6) Limit your activities on the Internet and avoid being alone on your computer.Can't do the second part but I am logging the time I spend on the internet this week - everything: work, radio, etc included - and will try to halve it gradually over the next few weeks. 7) At your workplace, avoid surfing the Web when you're alone.Not an issue for me. 8) Set up your Internet software for parental control (yes! as you would for a kid!)I'm much too clever at getting round this, but I haven't checked out the software packages in a while, so there may be some useful upgrades. 9) Arrange an appointment with a psychiatrist who will help you to understand the nature of your needs, to instil you with self-confidence and to divert your overactive imagination to more creative hobbies.See yesterday's post - no further progress on this today. 10) CONVINCE YOURSELF THAT YOU HAVE THE WILLPOWER AND YOU WILL SOON DISCOVER YOUR FREEDOM AND INDEPENDENCE!See my final affirmation! ------- Two more things today: 1) I was "unsettled" again by an unexpected but non-sexual matter, but finally "settled" it to my own satisfaction, so no threat of a slip there. Nor did I need a glass of wine to "settle" me! 2) The Beast (notice how I've started to use RR terminology!) has opened up a new front: erotic dreams! but I think I'll leave the analysis till tomorrow! Right now I'm going to have something to eat and watch Schindler's List (the best film of all time IMHO) on DVD. petitjean ------ I WILL NEVER USE PORNOGRAPHIC MEDIA AGAIN AND I WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND
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cammy
Full Member
Posts: 221
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Post by cammy on Nov 14, 2007 14:46:21 GMT -5
Shawshank Redemption. IMHO. Looks good J.
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Post by petitjean on Nov 15, 2007 14:19:30 GMT -5
3 full days porn free ------ Shawshank Redemption. IMHO. Looks good J. Yeah, that's a good one too but as a card-carrying atheist I couldn't possibly vote for anything with 'Redemption' in the title! Actually, I'd forgotten, Schindler's List has got some sex and nudity in it, but you'd have to be... well I don't want to descend into bad taste. Have just installed and configured K9 web protection software (on the recommendation of someone in the Secular Circle) and it's definitely a step up from previous ilk I've tried. However, I can't do the "write impossibly long password on paper, enter it, then throw away the paper" routine yet as I may need to reconfigure as time goes by. Eventually I will consider sharing my password with someone I can trust on this board, as a form of accountability. Today there were some mild potential triggers - awkward, boring work to do at home involving visiting French admin sites whose sidebars - this being France - are gratuitously adorned with pictures of pretty girls. But I "dealt with it" (this is code) before really starting, without resorting to porn. I didn't finish the task, as my concentration was poor today (the work really is boring!), but the snail is back on the slope. Regarding that erotic dream I had the night before last, I had a very similar one the night after my first slip on October 19th. [trigger]I was in my bedroom on the residential course I've mentioned before, and then a new young female roommate, another teacher, arrived - not someone I recognize from real-life or porn. We had single beds, but with no space in between. She was unpacking and I offered to help; we were speaking in French and I used the polite "vous" form. She declined my offer but then started undressing, and I didn't know where to look.[/trigger] And then the scene abruptly changed - all erotic content gone. I was with the mother of an old school friend who I've recently linked up with again IRL after about 20 years. The mother died some years ago but in this dream she was wearing smart outdoor clothing and looking quite fit and dapper. I made to kiss her on the cheeks à la française, but she moved away. We walked together and I gradually realized she was unable to speak but was struggling to say something. Dream over. The interesting thing here was that I visited the old school friend - let's call him UC - in his new home earlier this year. Although he and his family are having a hard time financially and their house is tiny, I was struck by how content and together they seemed ('twas not ever thus with UC). The cramped conditions just seemed to add to this somehow. UC is on Skype, like me, and he's someone I'm considering confiding in... The snag, from my point of view, is that he's an ordained priest, and also, he lives miles and miles away. So if anyone's got any interpretations or ideas to offer, I'd be interested to hear them. petitjean ------ I WILL NEVER USE PORNOGRAPHIC MEDIA AGAIN AND WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND
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Post by mrbister on Nov 15, 2007 15:23:03 GMT -5
Hi petitjean. I like the new ending you have on your posts. That's the right attitude to take. Good work.
Well, if there's such a thing as dream interpretation then here's my opinion:
(the first bit revolves round NG) the bedroom scene - there are 2 single beds without any space between them. Maybe this is your dream expression of the fact that you and NG are separate (2 SINGLE beds). But there's almost no barrier between the two beds, in the same way that there's almost no barrier between yourself in your room, and her in her's when she's changing. You use the polite form to address her because she is a stranger, but she behaves in a way that you perceive, or like to imagine, women should behave. (Not necessarily in a conscious way, but the result of P use objectifying women to you may leave your brain seeing them as a pure form of gratification on a subconscious level. I do believe such views can coexist with having a significant other - you can see depth in the SO, but on a broader level you subconsciously see all women you do not know as objects for male gratification). When her clothes are removed you don't know where to look - sounds a great deal like the problem you have with NG. So as far as I can say this part is all to do with NG or something similar.
Dream part 2: the lady is a mother of an old school friend - she represents the well adjusted, normal and untroubled part of society (even if there's not really such a thing). She is also a figure from childhood who you may have respected? (also, was this a time free of P-troubles for you?) She does not allow your social francais-style kiss: respectable society, and maybe the innocent childhood you had, would reject you for who you are now in regards to your addiction? You feel, or perhaps fear, that society can or soon will see you for an addict? If she also represents a close social bond that your family now has perhaps her inability to speak is an embodiment of your feeling that people can't relate to you as an addict. Hmmm, I don't know what else to write. Maybe you envy, or simply miss / desire, the close relations UC now enjoys (even in spite of these cramped conditions and monetary troubles)?
As an ordained priest it could pose a problem from the point of you of being an atheist and not wanting religious advice. On the plus side he should be very tolerant and caring though. He won't judge you and will see it as a problem in spite of you trying to be a good person. Being miles and miles away is also a mixed blessing isn't it? You can still communicate with his easily enough through skype though.
Well really it's up to you to make your own mind up about all this stuff isn't it? Most people aren't going to know enough about you to make any sort of decent judgement are they? It's best for you to go with your feelings on the matter (although don't go with fear if it's going to scare you away from help).
No problem about the previous message I left here. I'm glad you find it at least partly useful. Any use you can get out of it is better than no use, and makes it entirely worthwhile having written it.
It's good to know you've got some structure then, but you need serious commitment to back it up. And try not to worry about the GP. It'll be embarrassing, but you don't have to disclose all the tiny details, so long as he knows you have a problem with compulsive behaviour that is having a negative effect on your life that should be fine.
As for dealing with NG girl. Well sure, you can try and be in an obvious place in an effort to get her to close her blinds if she sees you (although for all you know she may be an exhibitionist who likes the thought she could be seen and would go out of her way not to close them, but lets assume that's not the case), and yes normally people would close their blinds. So normally you would be in your rights as a neighbouring citizen to attempt to get her to close her blinds. But what is much much more important here is you getting over your addiction. You have to make sure you don't see her if she's being lewd in front of her window. Unfortunately you can't influence her mind telepathically. She will probably just go on as usual. It is YOUR responsibility not to look, it is YOUR responsibility to get out of there as soon as she is tempting you. It's the only way you can get better. Your recovery is all down to you. It's no good expecting society to cover itself up so that you don't see what triggers you. You have to avoid the triggers. That means avoiding the site of her. If she's being indecent I have to stick to my guns and say just get the hell out of there. Don't let yourself be tricked into thinking that your staying is going to make her change her mind about doing what she has been for so long. It's more likely just your subconscious "beast" giving itself breathing space and the chance to get a grip over you and get what it wants. Don't risk that. Taking risks is exactly what everyone on here will tell you you shouldn't be doing. From their own personal experience. Well, I hope you will think about it. Don't let yorself go down the wrong path.
Aside from that, good work though. Stick to your new motto. It's good to see.
All the best,
Mr. B
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Post by Philter on Nov 15, 2007 15:54:04 GMT -5
Hi petitjean,
Thanks for your journal. As a fellow athiest, I find it helpful to read the thoughts of someone else who is recovering in a godless reality.
I greatly look forward to reading the rest of the Orroz method. I've tried steps 1 - 10 more times than I can count with no success.
Good luck!
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Post by petitjean on Nov 16, 2007 16:06:03 GMT -5
4 full days without porn ------ Thanks for dropping in mrbister and Philter. I've started an Orroz thread on the General Discussion board and will translate bits from time to time - it's good practice for me! Hi petitjean. I like the new ending you have on your posts. That's the right attitude to take. Good work. I can't take the credit, it was unico who suggested it. Well. at the risk of being accused of addict-speak, I'm not convinced it really is about her. The mind is very adept at *using* parts of one's experience but it's not necessarily *about* those things. I think there's something in this, as I was already thinking of confiding in UC before having this dream and was rather nervous about how he might react - he has two teenage daughters, one of whom looks his mother. But read this, just to show how the mind can work. The evening after the dream I started to watch Schindler's List, and had planned this the night before, before the dream. It's a film I know well, but as I say I'd forgotten about the sex and nudity. However, it was getting late and it's a long film, so I stopped it well before the end and went to bed. Yesterday evening I watched the rest of the film and do you know... I'd paused it just *before* the scene when Helen Hirsch refuses Schindler's kiss: "It's not that kind of kiss" he tries to reassure her. And my dream was also about a kiss being refused, in fact about two refusals, as if my motives cannot be trusted any more. What kind of kiss is it, what kind of man am I? Am I a *good* man? And then this morning, the brand name "Schindler" was there at the top of the escalator in the metro. It's not quite the face of Jesus in my soup but... weird, man! petitjean ------ I WILL NEVER USE PORNOGRAPHIC MEDIA AGAIN AND I WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND
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Post by mrbister on Nov 17, 2007 4:06:51 GMT -5
I love it when things like that happen - seeing the brand name "Schindler" after all that! Well there you go. Make of it what you will. Who knows, perhaps your mind was using the ideas from the film to represent your own problems.
You could say that the part of the dream I interpreted to be about NG was actually representative of a broader way of thinking. Also, you didn't know where to look - perhaps it's your addict-side battling with you. It wanted to look, but you didn't, so you didn't know where to look. Doesn't it seem likely to you that it's about NG and also about other things too?
Well anyway, you don't need to take credit for your motto, but you've had the guts to put it there whether or not you came up with it. So I'm assuming that if you're willing to put it there, you're willing to stick to it. Stand fast. And if you ever get the urge to use, look on here and read that message. Remind yourself of your decision.
All the best
Mr. B
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Post by petitjean on Nov 17, 2007 14:27:14 GMT -5
5 full days porn free ------ mrbister, thank you again for your supportive words. To come back to something you said in your earlier post (it was a good 'springboard' comment): Dream part 2: the lady is a mother of an old school friend - she represents the well adjusted, normal and untroubled part of society (even if there's not really such a thing). She is also a figure from childhood who you may have respected? (also, was this a time free of P-troubles for you?) Yes, that's right, relatively speaking, at the time I was closest to UC. There's some stuff from my earlier childhood which I'm not ready to go into yet and the year when I bought my first porn mag (1979) is still some time off. I say "relatively speaking" because my (younger!) brother had a stash which I had access to. When our mother found it, she said the mags were "too old" for us, as if we would be allowed to have them legitimately at some future date. In 1979 I was starting my first post-university 9 to 5 job. Every day I would have to walk past a newsagent's which had explicit magazine covers in the window. In the end, I succumbed, I didn't have a gf at the time and I told myself I was "old enough" and bought one girlie mag, which within a year had become about 20. My mother, bless her soul, was not so well educated and articulate as UC's mother and I always enjoyed talking to her (the latter). I sometimes wonder about my brother - I notice that in their new house layout his computer is in an open area. Something I may come back to... mrbister, I want to come back to your views on how I should deal with NG, but no time for that now. Oh, and one small development: in fact the Orroz site *does* list some therapists in my city. Turns out I'd been looking in the wrong place in the alphabetical order - duh! - shows how porn can addle the brain! But the two main choices are both female, not sure whether that's right for me... petitjean I WILL NEVER USE PORNOGRAPHIC MEDIA AGAIN AND I WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND (I type this out every time)
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Post by petitjean on Nov 18, 2007 13:47:41 GMT -5
6 full days porn free ------ This time last week I was right in the middle of a 5-hour slip so it's gratifying not to have had any serious temptations this weekend. Porn thoughts still drift into my head quite often but I've been swatting them away quite easily. Went for a run late afternoon and that helps. Benefits so far of being mostly porn-free over the past 5/6 weeks: 1) The most important: getting enough sleep and feeling more alert in the mornings. 2) Thus, generally being more effective at work. 3) Reading more books - I love reading, especially history and philosophy, but I'd practically ground to a halt BR. 4) Starting to cook again: I'm not a great cook, merely competent (SO takes care of that side when she's here - she is the world's best! but I do enjoy pottering around in the kitchen with some music on. BR I would often finish a porn session just before 10pm so I could dash out and catch the last shop before it closed, inevitably coming home with some crappy snack or convenience meal (and this in the land of great food!). Then maybe go back on the porn. No more! 5) More phone contact with family and friends - I've just been giving long-distance help to SO's daughter with her French homework. As for dealing with NG girl. Well sure, you can try and be in an obvious place in an effort to get her to close her blinds if she sees you... You have to make sure you don't see her if she's being lewd in front of her window... It is YOUR responsibility not to look, it is YOUR responsibility to get out of there as soon as she is tempting you. It's the only way you can get better.... I have to stick to my guns and say just get the hell out of there. mrbister, I've been thinking long and hard about what you say and I know it's well-intentioned but... I think you need to read my Oct 24th post, where I say that it was a 'hide and flee' strategy that sent me back to the porn BR. I read on another blog (nothing to do with porn or addiction):
Somebody (I can't be bothered to look up who it was) said something to the effect that a symptom of insanity is to keep doing the same thing while expecting a different outcome.For me, getting over addiction is all about deliberately changing my behaviour, even if that seems counter-intuitive at times. OK maybe I don't have to make a show of busying myself in a part of the room where she can see me; just do what I would normally be doing if she wasn't there. Actually I've taken some of the sting out of that issue by drawing SO's attention to NG's behaviour (without mentioning my problem with it). It somehow seems slightly less charged than it was. Her room is dark right now but bf was there with her earlier on and I just carried on with what I was doing. petitjean ------ I WILL NEVER USE PORNOGRAPHIC MEDIA AGAIN AND WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND
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Post by petitjean on Nov 19, 2007 16:20:38 GMT -5
7 full days porn free ------ I was educated in a religious-oriented school, and that was enough to turn me into an atheist. The philosophical convictions didn't come till later, it was the questions we asked the men in cassocks and the way they struggled to answer, decent enough folk as they were: - If God knows He's all powerful, why does He need us to praise Him all the time? - If there's only one God, how come there are so many religions? - Doesn't God sometimes get things wrong? - Why does God let all those children in Africa starve? - (my question) How come when we get something wrong, it's all our fault, but when we do anything good God takes all the credit? It doesn't seem fair. - How does He choose which prayers to refuse? (OK, that was Tom Waits) Everybody in the school had to go to the church next door most Wednesday mornings for Holy Communion and there was one prayer I really hated, called the "Prayer of Humble Access" because of the line: "We are not worthy even to gather up the crumbs under Thy table". Designed to make everyone feel great, that one. It's the idea of human abjectness and powerlessness that I simply don't accept, and that's why I'm wary of the 12-step approach. OK, there may be chemicals coursing through the body and causing involuntary reactions when we're using porn, but logging onto the internet and typing in a URL engages the higher cognitive and motor functions, and we do have control over those. As someone said, addiction is a choice - and so is recovery. We are capable of both the best and the worst from our own devices - God or the Devil have got nothing to do with it. Some people on this board say they believe in God but have no time for organized religion. Actually with me it's almost the opposite: organized religion has been responsible for some great achievements in art, architecture, music, philosophy, philanthropy, etc (as well as a lot of violence, intolerance, ignorance, and bigotry of course). I live near the final resting place of one of the greatest thinkers of last 1000 years, and he was a saint of the Roman Catholic church, now housed in a magnificent medieval monastery. (Actually, if he were alive today he would probably be an atheist, but that's beside the point.) I even buy to some extent the thesis (eg René Girard) that a common sense of the sacred, of ritual, and of sacrifice is an essential element of social cohesion. But it does worry me that all this depends on a significant number of people having faith in a non-existent supernatural being who has let His flock down time and time again. Phew! Rant over. petitjean ------ I WILL NEVER USE PORNOGRAPHIC MEDIA AGAIN AND I WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND
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Post by petitjean on Nov 20, 2007 18:45:00 GMT -5
8 full days porn free ------ 6) Limit your activities on the Internet and avoid being alone on your computer.Can't do the second part but I am logging the time I spend on the internet this week - everything: work, radio, etc included - and will try to halve it gradually over the next few weeks. OK, here are the figures. Between the 12th and 18th November I was connected to the internet from home for just under 64 hours in total. There was no porn content in that but plenty of aimless surfing, which I am trying to cut down on too. I use the internet for work, email, personal research, shopping, banking, this board, listening to radio, Skyping, and now TV - it's worrying how we're becoming so dependent on computers and internet in our lives! I should explain about the TV. I don't have an actual TV (French TV is mostly cr*p) just a USB tuner, which is not working at the moment. However, I've just discovered a site which streams the main UK channels, BBC etc, so I'm making the most of that while I can - it probably won't last forever. Also I like to watch live football (that's soccer to you US folks) via the Chinese p2p sites. Some of those sites also carry porn channels but oddly enough I've rarely been tempted - as I said before, moving porn pictures are not really my thing. But to get back to the subject of this post, my aim for this week is to reduce my internet use by 5 hours, with the ultimate aim of halving my use (32 hours per week connected). About 6.5 hours so far this week. I will start the counter each Monday morning, that way work is prioritized. K9 is working discreetly in the background. So far so good, but I daren't test it in case it's fallible, if you see what I mean. Looking at the online log, it's amazing how many internet addresses get logged - it's in the thousands already. All those sidebars, ads, etc... I'm amused that this site is categorized as Business & Economy. But I'm annoyed that one 'Adult/Mature' site appears to have been visited, even though I blocked that category; that visit certainly wasn't intentional and I don't remember it - must've been an ad or something. It sort of ruins my half-formed plan to show the log to my SO as a form of proof/accountability - she probably wouldn't believe it was only an accident. petitjean ------ I WILL NEVER USE PORNOGRAPHIC MEDIA AGAIN AND I WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND
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Post by petitjean on Nov 21, 2007 18:29:21 GMT -5
9 full days porn free
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Just a quick check-in tonight as I'm tired; I've had a long day today and another one coming tomorrow. No triggers or temptations - it's been one of those days when porn seems a million miles away. Should have time for a longer post tomorrow evening.
petitjean
I WILL NEVER USE PORNOGRAPHIC MEDIA AGAIN AND I WILL NEVER CHANGE MY MIND
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Post by mrbister on Nov 22, 2007 9:02:17 GMT -5
Hi petitjean, just wanted to drop by and wish you all the best in your continuing progress and recovery. I know you have the strength in you to succeed. I hope to have the time to post some more responses on your journal soon, I have been busy lately and haven't had the chance.
Until then, all the best.
Mr. B.
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