|
Post by JohnG on Jan 14, 2007 6:18:07 GMT -5
DAY 4
Thanks freshstart.
I suspect you are right about the MB but I really don't want to believe that is true right now. But regardless I have renewed today my promise not to use P/MB for the next 24 hours. I have to think of it that way - one day at a time. It is hard. My mind wants to think along the lines of "but to give up MB forever, how could I do that? It is not natural... is it even possible?" etc. etc. But those questions can wait, at the very minimum I do accept the theory that I read in an article, the link to which I think I found in a thread here, that there must be a period of detox to rid the body of chemicals that reach abnormal levels when we MB obsessively. Those chemicals, the article, said, impair the brains ability to function correctly.
So just for today, no P or MB.
Thanks again to all.
Tomorrow I will be free to post more and read more. I am looking forward to it.
JohnG
|
|
|
Post by JohnG on Jan 15, 2007 7:31:41 GMT -5
DAY 5
Have been busy reading and posting this morning.
This site is helping me more than I can say.
Summary of this weekend:
I had no real temptation with P - but I was with the GF all weekend so I knew I would be safe. However, I am finding it very difficult to stop "scanning" all the women I see. But I am trying to be concious of it and stop it. I have been looking away from the TV when I see provocative images.
I covered a pic on a web page this morning with my hand. I followed a link to an article on P addiction and there, next to the article, was a small pic of a nurse in black stockings and a short skirt!!!! What the hell! Like a magnet my eyes went right there and right after them I covered the pic with my hand. I could literally feel something in my head getting ready for a MB session. I felt good for a second (or three). Incredible - really really incredible. I am convinced I was feeling some neurotransmitter firing somewhere. I hope there comes a time when I am not so at risk. But today I can get a whiff of beer and I no longer have those urges that I used to get with THAT... So there is hope.
Last night my GF wanted to have relations and since things have been tense there I didn't argue. I really would have rather not done that. I really want to clear my system of the accumulated chemical crap from compulsive MB and P usage. So we had relations and all was fine but I had to use fantasies to finish, ones that I would rather have not had. Without any triggering detail, this is how my thinking went:
I was aroused without fantasies. But I was not getting close to finishing - and I conciously decided to use a fantasy. The very encouraging thing for me was that it was difficult to conjur my habitual fantasy and it had nowhere near the power that it usually does - in part because I did not (for the first time) feel ok doing it. It had the desire effect finally but it was not very satisfying.
From this I take the following:
My attempts to recondition my thought patterns MAY be bearing fruit. Maybe. My presence here and my frequent reflections on the subject seem to definitely have taken this fantasizing out of my comfort zone. The power of the fantasy over me is weakening.
I need to say for the sake of honesty and my recovery that this was a fantasy with the woman who used to act out the mother/son thing with me. However, in the fantasy last night, we were engaged in conventional relations.
At the time my GF and I had relations these things were going through my head:
Am I doing this as a substitute for MB? That is, to get some form of relief? Answer: probably. As to the fantasy - should I just say that I don't feel like finishing or use fantasy to finish? I was worried that she would be upset - but to what extent was that "worry" an excuse to use the fantasy? Probably to a great extent. I should have begged off. I was delighted when it was so hard to get the fantasy going. I saw this a change in me. It definitely has not happened before.
I don't know if the relations and/or fantasy means I should I shoud technically reset my sobriety date, but I am not doing it. My goal is to remain P/MB free and I have done that for 5 days!!!! I am not taking that away from myself. Feels too good to say it.
Just as long as I am honest, right?
That's all for now.
I promise to myself no P/MB for the next 24 hours.
Good luck to all.
JohnG
|
|
|
Post by choselife on Jan 15, 2007 7:37:16 GMT -5
I don't have time to write much now, but just wanted to say that from I read of your last post, you sure are working real hard at sobriety/recovery. I give you a lot of credit. The devil is in the details, and you are really working at those details. And I do appreciate your comment about neurotransmitters.
CL
|
|
|
Post by JohnG on Jan 15, 2007 8:02:26 GMT -5
Choselife,
Thanks a lot for your comment. I posted in your journal too. Please take care of yourself and keep trying, ok?
JohnG
|
|
|
Post by JohnG on Jan 15, 2007 10:50:44 GMT -5
Well today has been a very very good day. I have been fully immersed in the board and reading and posting and I wish to thank everyone whose posts I have been reading.
|
|
|
Post by JohnG on Jan 15, 2007 11:59:42 GMT -5
Now it seems I have run up against the whole issue of disclosure. What do I tell and when?
Great.
|
|
|
Post by freshstart on Jan 15, 2007 12:19:34 GMT -5
Tell who. Your girlfriend/12-step group or here?
If its 12-step group or here, then tell everything as soon as you are ready. Secrets (i'm sure you know all this from AA) are the lifeblood of addiction.
If you are talking about your girlfriend, I don't know. Best to post on the main board and ask for advice from SOs
Best of luck.
|
|
|
Post by JohnG on Jan 15, 2007 12:30:42 GMT -5
Tell who. Your girlfriend/12-step group or here? If its 12-step group or here, then tell everything as soon as you are ready. Secrets (i'm sure you know all this from AA) are the lifeblood of addiction. If you are talking about your girlfriend, I don't know. Best to post on the main board and ask for advice from SOs Best of luck. Thanks freshstart, No, I meant my GF. I am telling all here - I haven't told details like the names of the sites I have visited but I have told all my worst secrets (that I can think of so far). I have posted over in the partner's forum - they all favor telling my GF. I am still not clear on what I am going to do however. I don't want to hurt her, I don't want to deal with the shame, guilt, etc. But though I couldn't do it today or perhaps in the next week or so, I know I could do it. But should I? That I will have to work out with the help of my AA sponsor. I am considering asking his wife who I also know well and she is in Alonon. He has over 25 years sober (in AA) and they are a rock solid couple. I want to hear what they say about it. They both know my GF as well. And they know the culture - people my pooh pooh this, but the culture here is much more of "I don't want to know." Where most American women might say I would want him to tell me, Spanish women might (I say MIGHT) tend to say, "I wouldn't want to know." I have heard this sentiment expressed over and over but I am unsure how serious they are when they say it. My sponsor's wife can surely shed light on this. Thanks for dropping by freshstart! JohnG
|
|
|
Post by dijit80 on Jan 16, 2007 4:23:17 GMT -5
Hi, Its tough knowing whether or not or how or when to speak to your SO, it takes alot of guts to lay yourself open like that. MY SO is aware of parts of my problem but not how deep it is, and that was hard sharing that, as regards culture, I can sympathsise different culture have very different ways of handling things, but talking with your sponsors wife could be a good idea, and she might help you understand it from a (spainish) female point of view too. Dijit80
|
|
|
Post by JohnG on Jan 16, 2007 5:50:41 GMT -5
DAY 6 My first post here today is to TimM re: a discussion here: lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=addicts&action=display&thread=1168606205I decided I should bring it over here now as it has become MY burning question and I don't want to hijack another's thread. We have been discussing the subject of disclosure and I thought I was clear on my position and that is was just an academic discussion but it has now invaded my mind. dijit80 I appreciate your reply. Here are more of my thoughts and concerns on the same subject: TimM, Thanks for your reply. I am glad we didn't let it go because I posted in the SO's forum and got lots of valuable (though hard to hear) feedback. Your arguments and reasoning has helped me to change my thinking a lot. I still am resisting but I agree that: I was closer to non-disclosure than disclosure. I been forced to move by the weight and logic of the arguments that I have been reading here. Adultery has a different role in AA. It is more central to the problem here and I agree with those who point out that it is correct to let a partner know that you are an AA. This goes to the point of informed consent. I have read this over and over in the posts and I believe your earlier post touches on it as well. Without facts such as these the partner is not informed thus negating their consent. Though you are less convinced, I believe you did the right thing waiting. I see the pitfalls and the inertia that can build up - the resistance, but without some stability and a minimum of preparation and reflection I expect my sobriety would not survive such a shock. So, how does this affect me? Well, I have my own decsion to make and so now the answer seems much less clear. I have a GF who is unaware of my P use and two infidilities. The SO's believe I am looking for a way out and perhaps they are right. I am coming around to the view that disclosure is necesary but I am unconvinced that this applies to all circumstances. These are the factors in my own situation that lead me to doubt: 1. We are separating within the month. She does not wish to have children and I do. We came to the realization a very long time ago that our goals were incompatible but have undoubtedly some serious dependency issues. But now I have bought a house over a thousand miles away and am moving there shortly. I am currently occupied with moving my stuff into a storage unit and getting read to start work. 2. She honestly has no clue about my P use or anything else. She has not noticed any secretive behaviour and my circumstances do not require it. I work at home, she does not. The infidelities (twice) ocurred on another continent (in the U.S.). She needs me to push the send button to send an email - I am not exaggerating at all. I have to open hotmail for her and open a blank mail for her. I wouldn't know how to open a folder sitting on the desktop. I am (at the moment) persuaded that if we were to continue as a couple I would need to tell her if for no other reason than informed consent. I see no way around this argument. She should have that information. But I am still reluctant to drop this bomb in her lap just as I am about to leave. I have read hundred of posts in the partner's forum and it has done anything but clarify my thinking on what to do in these particular circumstances. To say, "ok well, that is it I guess, oh, and by the way, before I leave, here's a little going away present..." does not necesarily seem the most responsible decision to me. I know what the SO's would say - tell her anyway, but I am still not convinced. Does my fear and selfishness play into it? Absolutely! But that is not ALL that is going on here, no way. Anyway, any kind feedback is welcome. In the SO's forum I expect to get a mouthful but if anyone is temped to read me the riot act, please don't do it here. I welcome criticism, but here I want it in a loving way. I want one place where I don't have to feel like a sh!t. Thanks. JohnG
|
|
|
Post by timm on Jan 16, 2007 7:35:51 GMT -5
John,
Thanks for the invitation over here, and for modeling real recovery in your ability to ask and listen and to think new and hard thoughts. What you're doing is inspiring.
I'm not sure I have any feedback on how to handle disclosure to the GF with whom you are breaking up. You're right that to me and to the SOs, informed consent is a huge issue. For me there is another, related, issue, which is the importance of trust and openness and intimacy in a marriage. I think we are called to be radically open and vulnerable and intimate in a marriage - to become one flesh, as the Bible says, in an emotional and spiritual sense as well as in a physical sense. I don't think we can do that when we are holding huge secrets, and so I think continuing to hold a huge secret is a continuing sin against the partner and the marriage that goes on day after day after day. Holding that secret continues to make intimacy impossible, and is a wrong that goes on and on. I think maybe that's why it seems to me so strongly that it can't do to say, "Well, it's behind me, and I made amends by not repeating the action and by volunteer work at a women's shelter," or something like that.
That whole analysis is based on a marriage, though, and not on a relationship that is ending. I'm married to my first girlfriend, so I can't give advice on how to handle that breakup. Things that come to mind to think about, though, might include
- Is there any chance at all that you will try to separate and then be drawn back together? The dynamics of the return change radically if she doesn't know about your SA.
- Is it possible that some of the reason for the separation is related to your reluctance/difficulty/fear in being emotionally intimate, which grows out of the addiction? If so, then she may blame herself for being unable to make the relationship work, when in fact it is your defects that drive the separation. In that case, it might be important to share in order to help her feel better about herself.
- Many of the SOs have been in relationships with one addict after another. For her future happiness and her ability to enter into new relationships with informed consent, it might be important for her to know more about the person in her last relationship. This might help her protect herself in the future.
- She may not know anything about computers, but she may read your emotional life much more carefully than people like you and me think is possible. I'm often amazed at the sensitivity of SO shares here. Could it be that she sees that something is wrong between you, that she doesn't know what, and that she is allowing the issue of children to bring a neat end to a relationship that might be able to blossom if she knew all the facts and if real honesty and intimacy could flourish? That would have to be thought through very carefully, since we are so good at faking out ourselves and our partners about our recovery; but maybe honesty would let you both discover something you didn't know about the relationship.
- From a purely selfish perspective, it's also a chance for you to practice disclosure in a low-risk setting. Obviously this argument only makes sense if the decision is already clear that for her, disclosure is good.
That's all I've got; and as I say, I have no personal experience in the situation you are in. I'm not giving advice, and the fact that all my questions point in one direction is a result of my experience in a marriage, not a subtle effort to bias the outcome of your thinking. Do well. Glad you're here. Congratulations again for taking this question with awesome seriousness. You give us all a picture of what sobriety is built on.
Tim M.
|
|
|
Post by JohnG on Jan 16, 2007 7:56:35 GMT -5
Thank Tim for the very thoughtful reply.
I obviously have a lot to think about. As to the children issue she has two kids 21 and 24. I would adopt but she really doesn't want any more. She has said a few times that she might, but I know it is because she thinks it may be the only way of keeping me. She truly has no desire for more kids, I know that.
I would rather not "practice" as I know that I could disclose this in a new relationship. That would not be terribly problematic for me.
She has only had three relationships in her life. The last one was to the father of her children and lasted over 20 years. She has talked to me a lot about it and she hasn't expressed any fears of infidelities or anything sex related. Quite to the contrary - she always felt that was one of his virtues (in Spain fidelity can be something worthy of commenting on believe it or not).
As to separation and reconcilliation: maybe. I fear this since I want to leave myself open to someone who would really want children some day. If I ever got back into this relationship I am really afraid of losing any chance of ever having kids. Many of my friends have kids in their teens now and I am really hoping to kill my dependence on this relationship. Don't think I haven't realized that spilling the beans woudl be a good way to do it.
Anyway, lots of things to think about.
Many thanks Tim.
JohnG
|
|
|
Post by JohnG on Jan 16, 2007 8:57:28 GMT -5
Well I just called my sponsor and he has pneumonia. I talked to his wife for a bit and perhaps I will see him tomorrow. Today he hasn't even gotten out of bed.
I will wait a while before talking this out with him as this is not the moment.
I forgot to mention earlier that I decided this morning that I will not use P or MB for the next 24 hours.
Wish me luck.
JohnG
|
|
|
Post by dijit80 on Jan 17, 2007 6:10:34 GMT -5
Hi John G, good to hear you're thinking so much about this, this must be a hard discision to make. Dijit80
|
|
|
Post by JohnG on Jan 17, 2007 6:30:46 GMT -5
Day 7
One week.
I am not feeling like acting out but I don't feel good either.
I got totally obsessed within the past two days with a thread that I posted over on the partner's forum regarding the disclosre issue that I have been discussing with Tim.
I need to get all my resentment out because it is poisoning me. Here goes: _______________________________________________________ I wanted information about whether to disclose to my gf my problems and got slapped around (though it could have been much worse).
I admitted that my motives were impure - that is, I wanted someone to let me off the hook. Then they turn around and say, "you can't see that your real reason for being here is to hear only what you want to hear" or something like that. Ok, I admitted that so show me now where I am wrong.
Many people didn't read my posts carefully so they said things to me like, "your gf is leaving you because..." (untrue), "you are leaving your gf because of your PA" (untrue). You think it is ok to lie and cheat (untrue), [you said] Spanish women like being lied to (untrue). You are not listening (not true), you don't love your gf (not true), you think your gf is some fragile thing that needs to be protected (not true), [you think] how sweet you are to protect your gf from std's (untrue), you are not being honest (untrue), you are defensive becuase you are hiding stuff on your computer (untrue), you think so's are here to help you in your recovery (untrue), you are only thinking about yourself (untrue), you have been treated with more respect here than you deserve (untrue)...
I can't even remember all the stuff, the distortions, the manipulations of what I said, the twisting of words to try and fit me into some standard mold they have of what I look like and must be saying. I think many are very angry and are taking it out on me (in part). That is, many are incapable of talking to me in a normal respectful tone because of their own pain and anger and they can't see this. They can see through my words to my real motives (which I freely admitted) but can't see their own motives for answering me with ALL CAPS AND SAYING "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT LYING AND CHEATING ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!." I don't think that is necesary - and it sure doesn't help me hear what they are telling me it only gets me all riled up and wanting to just forget the whole thing.
They don't really care about my gf as they say because if they did they would tell me in a tone that I can hear (such as Tim or Helstone or a few others did) the defects in my reasoning. But all those caps didn't get me any closer to "doing the right thing." Being totally honest about what I am feeling, I have to say that I am less convinced now than before. I was moving that way but last night after reading more in the partner's forum, trying to understand, I thought, I am going to turn my gf into one of these SO's - bitter and cynical and ready to believe that the word "addict" is just a word to hide behind, that really we are just a bunch of lying cheating theiving scumbags who would rather mb and p than be decent loving honest husbands and bf's - we just think P and MB is a better way to live and WE don't suffer at all, it's just all fun and games to us until we get caught. And we sure don't care about what this does to the self-esteem and emotional stability of our SO's - who cares? They are just objects to us, like furniture, and we are just dandy seeing them that way - hell, what's the big deal anyway? _________________________________________________________
Ok. There is most of it, I think.
Where this resentment affects me: my emotional security and my sense of self-worth. I have tried to describe this resentment. I will try to break it down more tomorrow and analyze it.
The BB of AA (I don't have access to SLAA/SAA lit.) says:
This was our course: We realized that the people who wronged us were perhaps spiritually sick. Though we did not like their symptoms and the way these disturbed us, they, like ourselves, were sick too. We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves, This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done. We avoid retaliation or argument.
I read that and it helped a lot. We are all sick here. I can't go in there and respond to all the things that I think (rightly or wrongly) that they did to offend me. It is my own selfishness and insecurity that wants me to do that. My recovery requires that I listen and avoid controversy.
Easier said than done but I feel somewhat better now.
Anyway,
God help me get through the day. I just want to get through the next 24 hours without P or MB. Everything else is secondary. Please help me to do this and remain constant in my commitment. Thanks.
JohnG
|
|