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Post by esmeralda on Aug 22, 2007 15:16:51 GMT -5
My question/questions for you ladies is/are: Should I talk with my wife about this? Obviously it will be like an eathquake in our marriage and in her life. If so, when? How? And then what? Witness, from my experience (and I'm in the same age group) the answer to should you tell her is: YES, like mentioned before "truth hurts, lies kill", tell her BEFORE she finds out on her own. Yes, it will be an earthquake in your marriage and her life but I'm guessing she already "knows" something is wrong in her marriage and her life, she just doesn't have a name for it, doesn't know exactly what it is and is probably blaming herself. When do you tell her..... AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!! How.... with humility, kindness, and total HONESTY. The total honesty is the most important part!! Good luck to you.... your wife deserves the truth so she has the opportunity to decide for herself what she will do with the information. Peace....Essy
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Post by Elphie WWOTW on Aug 22, 2007 15:27:10 GMT -5
My G*d, what I would have given for my husband to have told me about his sex addictions, instead of me finding out by tripping on his laptop cord and seeing the sex chats he was having while I was busy 1 room away finishing up last minute details of our 1-week-away wedding...
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Post by zerotolerance on Aug 22, 2007 18:11:35 GMT -5
I appreciate that you are acknowledging having done wrong and are trying to do the right thing now. I know that takes tremendous effort and I commend you for trying. Obviously she deserves to know the truth, and you definately need to stop lying to her, and yourself about it. However, I find these statements to be totally minimizing.
1. "Not spending money". Why do ya'll think cheating for free is less than cheating for money? I know spending money takes it away from your family but the primary problem is the cheating not the expense of it. And for all p users talk about how they(the girls) do it cause they want to and cause they get paid, you aren't paying them squat. Not that they would get it if you did pay, but still what's the deal about it being free that is suppose to make it better? It's a lie. IMO you are doing the same thing whether you pay or not, and that IS the REAL problem.
2. "Never brought any thing home or to work except via internet".
a). So you used mags behind her back away from home to cheat on her with those girls with. How is that suppose to make it better? Or less than what it is, cheating on your wife. Seeking what you should be building with her outside your marriage. Giving yourself, your sexuality, your sexual energy and time to p and infidelity. Location isn't the problem, using the p is the problem, not where, nor what type.
B). And what is it that you can't get on the internet these days. Why make out like internet use is less than the worst p medium available today. If you've logged on at home and p, you have cheated at home, and you have brought your p g/f into your home. I don't get this mentality. It's like not going to the strip club while bringing the strippers home instead. It's exactly like having a parade of strippers and prostitutes right in your home to perform for your viewing pleasure in private. You don't even have to go out anymore to spend time with a prostitute. You do it at home when you log on and porn just as if you are going out to get it. That's not any better, it's worse. imo.
3."Never even thought about flirting with another woman". P-ng is way worse than flirting. You are having metal/emotional sex with those women just as if they are right in front of you. I think what you mean is you haven't escalated to even worse behavior, by exposing her to an std, or whatever. But you've done way more than flirt with every single woman you consume in p! You put their private parts in your face and you have fako sexual experiences with them. I think most of us with rather our spouse engage in a little playful flirting (so long as it didn't lead anywhere else, and not that it's right) but rather than have you cheat with hundreds or even thousands of women behind our back. Flirting doesn't create an enviroment that abuses women and girls. No one gets kidnapped because people flirt. No one gets raped because people flirt. No cycles of abuse are perpetuated merely by flirting.
It sounds like you want to play it down so it won't sound so bad. Or like because you aren't as bad as other guys, it makes what you do more okay. But it doesn't. You are just as bad as all the other guys who cheat on their wifes in whatever form they do it. Adultry is adultry. Calling it p-ng doesn't make it not adultry.
And everything you've done to keep her from finding this out is gaslighting her. Everytime you know she thinks something different than the truth about you, and you didn't tell her while you knew the truth you were gaslighting her. Even the very idea of telling her some but not all is another attempt at gaslighting her. You have decided for her that she didn't need to know. That wasn't your place. That's objectification of her. That is taking away her free will and her ability to make informed decisions. If you're still slipping then you are still a user. And you are still getting worse. You may be getting better in some ways, maybe mentally, but until you stop slipping (ie CHOOSING p), then you are really still the same person. You can't change you, without changing that behavior. Less is not good enough. Only NONE is and ever will be good enough.
And since you haven't bothered to tell her so far, I question what your motives are now. Have you really come to the truthful conclusion that she deserve the truth no matter what happens to you as a result. Or are you looking for forgiveness to ease a guilty concious?
You will be telling her that your entire 31 year marriage has been one big lie. That is what it will feel like to her. She will think you have been a big fake husband, because you HAVE BEEN being a big faker. P causes you to compartmentalize it, to not see the true nature of the problems it causes, but we are not given any such compartments to help us deny the truth. P permeates everything, and she will see it from the perspective of everything having been contaminated.
I know those are scary thoughts. But you should tell her anyway. You should admit it all in one fell swoop, and then ask for her help and support. And be prepared for her to have tons of questions going forward as she works it out in her mind. If you stop p-ng, and are sincere, then she may be able to forgive you in time. But if she don't, it is still the right thing for you to do. You haven't let her decide for her life whatsoever before. You have taken away her choice in the matter by hiding your behavior from her, and keeping the truth from her. You decide what was best for both of you, only you were dead wrong in that decision. Giving her the choice of whether or not she wants to stay with a cheating man, and telling her the truth about what you think and do, is ALWAYS the most loving thing you can do for her, even though it will hurt her greatly. If/when you can't stop, or don't want to, then the most loving thing you can do is tell the truth then leave imo.
Not telling is never a good idea, it's gaslighting, it's deciet, it's objectifying, it's treating her like she doesn't even deserve the truth much less your love and concern.
I don't mean to sound harsh, and I hope you don't take it that way. I'm just saying how I feel about it, and I know it is not pretty. P is not pretty! What p does is not pretty. I commend you for trying to the right thing now.
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Post by LookingUp on Aug 22, 2007 18:25:42 GMT -5
I forgot to ask: What is gaslighting? Here's where the term came from: lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Partners&thread=1183904133&page=1Here's a thread on how gaslighting works: lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=Partners&action=display&thread=1165123145 Synonyms could be transparent, open, defenseless, unguarded, unprotected. As a Christian, it would be similar to humble and meek.
There are many ministries available to help ministers with sex sin. I know James Dobson gives free telephone counseling and helps people find resources that work for them. Here's a few links to links: www.pastorswives.org/pornhelp.htmThere's xxxchurch - probably www.xxxchurch.com - that is making quite a statement to help churches deal with porn. www.connectionmagazine.org/archives_old/2001_05/overcomingporn.htmThere's also "Celebrate Recovery" - a cirriculum used by churches to help various addicts and their spouses. Doug Weiss is one of the leading Christians working with PA and has written several books. www.sexaddict.com/ He does phone counseling. If international phone calls are expensive; possibly voice over IP is an option - it brings it down to about two cents (US$) a minutes. There's Neil Anderson's "Freedom in Christ" he has a few books for PA/SA - most deal with alcohol and drug addiction. www.ficm.org/newsite/index.php I've found his books very helpful for my food addiciton. This site lists international counselors trained in SA (presume most are secular): sash.net/component/option,com_mtree/Itemid,55/ The hole in that plan is that it still keeps a HUGE secret between you and her. It means you have to stay guarded so you don't accidentally say something. That keeps you on guard and feeling at risk of making a mistake. COngratulations on your 21 days sobriety. Keep stringing those days together... Do you have a supervisor or another pastor whom you trust who could act in that capacity and also as your accountability partner? Father God, please bless this husband, father and pastor as he journeys into this unknown valley. You promise to be with us and even spread a banquet in the dark valleys. Remind him of the green pastures and the still waters that await him as he strives to reach the other side where freedom in Christ awaits. Let him feel your presence in a new and special way as he moves ahead in his life. Give him Your wisdom and guidance; put your words of gentleness and compassion in his mouth as he talks to his wife. Give her your heart of compassion and help her quickly get to forgiveness. Help him learn how to rebuild trust and help his wife feel safe in their marriage again. Let Psalms 51 permeate his heart and guide him as he progresses in his recovery and sobriety. Please, Father, let them struggle together (not against each other) and grow closer together because they are fighting this battle against satan's evil together. Help them know Your will concerning their ministry as they heal and give them the strength to be fully obedient. Help them grow through this problem so they can both reach out to others who are in the pain and turmoil of sexual sin. Help them put their marriage back to the purity you intended it to have when they said their vows. In Jesus' precious name. Amen. LookingUp
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Post by Disillusioned on Aug 22, 2007 18:28:11 GMT -5
Great post ZT!
Witness...
Yes you should talk to your wife about this. You have been living a lie, and the longer you withhold this info from your wife the greater the lie becomes. Yes it will be like an earthquake.
When? Now. You can wait for 'the right time' and put it off for a freaking long time. It's not going to get any easier. Hopefully pick a time when the 2 of you don't have any commitments for the rest of the day.
How? Honestly. Vulnerably. With respect. She may want to know details, or she may not want to. Tell her what she wants to know, NOT what you want her to know. Don't minimise. Also tell her what you ARE doing to get better. Tell her about your recovery plan as well as how well it's working for you. Own what you did and apologise. Tell her you love her. Don't offer excuses. Assure her it wasnt' anything she did or didnt' do that caused this.
TimM had a wonderful wonderful letter he wrote to his wife when he disclosed. I'm not sure if it's still on this site or not, but you may want to ask him about it if you can't find it.
And then what? Depends on your wife. She may be fine and then fall apart a week later. She may hate you and kick you out. She may be strong and start setting her own boundaries. Whatever she does.. stay sober. Start openning up your entire life to her. No secrets. She should get (perhaps) all your passwords. Dont' ASK her if she wants them, just give them to her. Stop hiding anything at all.
Good luck
Do it soon. Please
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Post by LookingUp on Aug 22, 2007 18:49:42 GMT -5
TimM had a wonderful wonderful letter he wrote to his wife when he disclosed. I'm not sure if it's still on this site or not, Unfortunately, I think it's been deleted. I'm a strong advocate of disclosing. To me, trying to build an intimate relationship based on trust and honesty and integrity while still lying about the central thing in my life doesn't seem possible to me. For another, our spouses are adults who need to know. On a purely practical level, spending time on boards like this, doing counseling, talking on the phone and attending 12-step meetings are not things I can casually hide. Finally, being able to be honest has been unquestionably the best thing that could have happened between my wife and me. Disclosing is really hard, but I am flabbergasted at the idea that one could recover while failing eventually to do so. Here's the link John referred to, which begins with a letter I read to my wife as the start of my disclosure. It took me a while to find this link; searching for words that were in the letter failed to turn up the post, for some reason. lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1173458401A resource I found useful in preparing this disclosure was Schneider and Corley's book, Disclosing Secrets, which can be got either at Amazon or Patrick Carnes' web site at sexhelp.com . Tim M. LookingUp
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Post by Disillusioned on Aug 22, 2007 19:05:15 GMT -5
That's a shame about TimM's post being deleted. It was inspiring.
I would have a problem w/ the 'once a week' or scheduled times to talk about the porning that LU suggested. But I guess it works for other couples. For me, things occur to me at all times, and I would simply forget about them if I couldn't email them to Charlie or talk to Charlie about them. And for the first -weeks or months- if he were to silence any rant I felt a need to express I would have felt - silenced. If he were to try imposing a 'I only want to talk about this' schedule thing, I would NOT be a happy camper.
What works for us is....We talk about it (briefly) nightly. When we go to bed, he says prayers, then asks me if he can sleep there. He started doing that when our in-house separation ended. He realised it wasn't his right to sleep there. (since our separation ended - 3 years ago, I have NEVER said no.. but he still asks nightly). This begins a short conversation on what recovery work he did that day and I ask him if he was sober today. He'll tell me yes, he's sober and then that he called so&so or worked on step x or.. whatever. Or he'll tell me he didnt' do anything. We've done this dance every nite for 3 years. And at any time during the day I can bring up anything I want. Do I often? hmm. Sometimes, but usually it has more to do with me telling him about something I read here that I was thinking about and I want his take on it. So in that sense we talk about porn Every Single Day. Do I ask anymore about his particular porning habits? No. I dont' need or want to know anymore than I already do, but if I DID have a question, it should be answered.
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Post by witness on Aug 23, 2007 6:08:45 GMT -5
I asked for advice and you have certainly done your part. And I thank you.
Let me begin by addressing a few things: I got the gaslighting idea. To trick someone is to drive them crazy, and certainly not very nice.
I tried writing to TimM just now but it says he is no longer even listed. So too bad about that.
My "if" question has certainly been answered. Now I need to move forward with the "when and how". To summarize I would say: soon but at the right moment. And the how is to quote esmeralda: .... with humility, kindness, and total HONESTY.
And of course no minimizing. My sins could have been worse but that doesn't mean that I have not betrayed a trust. What I have done is wrong and totally unacceptable and inexcusable.
LU thank you for the links to recourses. I'll have to check those out.
zerotolerance, you said: "If you're still slipping then you are still a user. And you are still getting worse. You may be getting better in some ways, maybe mentally, but until you stop slipping (ie CHOOSING p), then you are really still the same person. You can't change you, without changing that behavior. Less is not good enough. Only NONE is and ever will be good enough.
And since you haven't bothered to tell her so far, I question what your motives are now. Have you really come to the truthful conclusion that she deserve the truth no matter what happens to you as a result. Or are you looking for forgiveness to ease a guilty concious?
You will be telling her that your entire 31 year marriage has been one big lie. That is what it will feel like to her. She will think you have been a big fake husband, because you HAVE BEEN being a big faker. P causes you to compartmentalize it, to not see the true nature of the problems it causes, but we are not given any such compartments to help us deny the truth. P permeates everything, and she will see it from the perspective of everything having been contaminated. "
Many tough words there. Perhaps not all of it is true but it is mostly true. And it is so hard for me to face up to it. When I fall I have felt like it is something that happens to me against my will. It is not like I have not fought against this over the years. How many times have I told myself: "Never again! This was the last time!"
Yet, I'm still here. And you are right. When I sin it is my choice to do so. I have to face up to that and take hold of it as my way out. I don't have to give in. If I have gone months at a time without it, I can stay pure for my remaining days on this earth.
I have not seen myself as the faker. Yes, I have compartmentalized it. Kind of my pet problem. Yet I can see how that from the other point of view it is radiation that contaminates everything.
I must find escape. Help me, Lord!
Total purity is the only kind there is. Thank you ladies for helping me see this through your eyes. The truth hurts, but the truth is what is real and the only place to find healing. I do not want to live a lie.
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Post by gracebyfaith on Aug 23, 2007 8:53:04 GMT -5
That statement in itself is a minimization - most of the ladies here, and the Word of God, state that what you have done is not only 'betray a trust', but commit adultery.
I don't believe that God (I'm not sure what church you are a minister in) has 'degrees' of sin. Sin is sin in the Lord's eyes.
This is so much more that a pet problem, I understand what you are saying but this stuff wrecks the lives of all it touches. Good luck with your disclosure.
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Post by witness on Aug 23, 2007 9:56:12 GMT -5
Yes, gracebyfaith, of course you are right. What I have done is wrong and I should not even try to justify my actions. I have treated it as my secret sin. In large part because being the deep, dark sin that it is, I felt there was nobody I could share it with. I always intended to change. I never imagined that it would drag on for so long.
It is hard for me to say that it is the same thing as committing adultery but it would also be hard to read with Jesus said in Mt 5.28 and say otherwise.
Facing the truth is not easy for me. Perhaps I should have come over to this side of the board more often. Some of you ladies know so much about this subject that you could hang out a shingle and start helping people.
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Post by completelydone on Aug 23, 2007 18:05:56 GMT -5
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Post by witness on Aug 23, 2007 18:28:11 GMT -5
cd, That is insightful to see what my actions might cause her to think about not being good enough for me. The truth is she is better than I deserve! Why would I ever look in another direction?
Well, ladies, I'm going to try to talk with her sometime this weekend. So we'll see if I get it done and then what happens from there.
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Post by completelydone on Aug 23, 2007 19:22:14 GMT -5
Witness said:
Short answer: You behave how you believe.
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Post by witness on Aug 24, 2007 4:08:14 GMT -5
Yes, cd, my head has been really messed up. There is no excuse for my wrong behaviour. And even worse it is a result of wrong beliefs. I want very much to change my mind and my heart. I think I'm making progress, but I'm obviously not there yet.
I plan to talk with her this morning. I pray that the Lord will help me, help her and help us.
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Post by LookingUp on Aug 24, 2007 4:39:24 GMT -5
I was just heading upstairs to pray. I'll remember both of you since today is THE day. May God bless you both.
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