|
Post by megan11 on Dec 20, 2007 16:14:03 GMT -5
This thread should get fun. Hmm, lets debate P, MB, Erotica, and adultry. What board is this again?
|
|
|
Post by LookingUp on Dec 20, 2007 16:34:37 GMT -5
P was strangley sexless in a way. It just became an empty, unfulfilling, compulsive ritual that I used to numb my feelings - literally the same way someone might use alcohol or drugs - so I hesitate to label this "adultry." Thus, if it was your wife who was mb to photos of naked men rather than sharing all of her sexuality with you, you would not consider that she had betrayed the wedding vows because it didn't "feel" sexual to her? The reason I ask, before Mr. LU and I were married and we discussed porn, cybersex, etc. He said it would be like inviting another person to come into your home, take off their clothes, sit on the computer desk and you'd both be sexual. He said even though neither party touched each other but only themselves, it would still be taking something from the marriage relationship and betraying sexual trust. That's why his PA was such a shock to me - because I thought him and I were in agreement of the underlying issues of how porn or mb would be betrayal. LookingUp
|
|
facingit
Full Member
One day at a time
Posts: 111
|
Post by facingit on Dec 20, 2007 16:46:56 GMT -5
Whether or not you felt you were using the women in P in a sexual way.... you were using them as objects to fulfil a certian level of sexual needs of your own. They are real women, regardless of how you feel towards them and regardless of why they were participating in the P. You are narrowing the scripture way too much. If everyone was aware of every single subconcious thought they had, we would be a completely different set of individuals with probably alot less problems. But that isn't reality. Rain, thank you for the response. I feel this is tremendously insightful, especially the point about how we all walk around with so many subsconscious thoughts. As far as wheter I "went outside marital vows," I'm not married, so that doesn't apply to me. However, adultry in the scriptural sense didn't only aplpy to married individuals. Any unlawful sexual behavior, such as intercourse outside of wedlock or prostitution was considered "adultry." The term has been narrowed in our modern usage. So, reading this saying of Jesus as applying specifically to the vows of wedlock is not accurate (if that were the case the rule would only apply to those who are married and single men would be free to lust away as much as they wanted because they would be committing no sin). But in any case, it is the spirit of the law not the letter that matters, and I thank you for your thoughtful feedback.
|
|
|
Post by Healing Rain on Dec 20, 2007 16:52:01 GMT -5
And thank you for your insight into the scripture as well. I too was narrowing it. I appreciate being able to discuss this with out all the "you know what" involved.. ya know. (not implying that you behave that way on the board, so please don't be offended) This was a nice exchange. Thank you for that.
~Rain~
|
|
tw45
New Member
Posts: 28
|
Post by tw45 on Dec 20, 2007 18:11:15 GMT -5
While any degree of sin is not acceptable I believe that degrees do exist. Images and fantasy are wrong but they are not the same thing as commiting the act. If you consider other sins such as stealing or murder I think the disticntion is easier to accept but there is a distinction between conspiracy if you will and the act.
I am not trying to downplay the seriousness of this addiction because regardless of wether you equate it to adultery or not does not in the least way minimize the pain and destruction it causes. I could even argue that because of the ongoing nature of the addiction and the years of secrecy the consequences are often more serious and painful than adultery. I also acknowledge that there is a great and real danger that continued exposure to this evil usually escalates until it does result in adultery and worse.
I post this because I think it might be helpful to some who have been told that they have crossed a line that makes them feel like they are beyond the point of no return. Not everyone thinks that way. That thought can motivate and ecourage them to keep trying before it does get worse.
|
|
|
Post by realthing on Dec 20, 2007 21:07:33 GMT -5
hi neil - you're here , you're making attempts to recognize and understand your wife's feelings, and you're questioning your own - i think that's all good. i really do respect the fact that you're here despite you're reservations on the behaviours that are upsetting to your wife.
as for the p - i'm not sure wot you think is intrinsically not wrong with it (not looking for an answer here though 'cos like we can see such debates are really frowned upon here). the only thing i would say about it though is if you do not feel there is anything intrinsically wrong with say p and mb then you're reasoning/motivation for stopping those behaviours perhaps will not hold enough credence to stop you doing it again. i know you say:
i now accept that looking at other women while engaging in MB is a form of adultery.
which you probably feel is strong enough motivation to stop but i know it didn't work that way for my h. although i had explained clearly about how i felt with regards to the infidelity still when it came down to it he might have thought it was a form of infedility but it wasn't enough to stop him p'ing (he made some comment when we found out a friend had been cheating on his wife and when i mentioned porn his reply was 'it's not the same and you know it'.
maintain that MB is a normal and natural expression of a persons sexuality regardless of age, gender,marital status and cultural or religious
just to clarify - do u also then think that mb without p but fantasizing about other women is a form of adultery but that mb'ing fantasizing about your wife is ok
i am positive that P is not an addiction for me, just a helpful MB tool.
funny i just can't get over the mindset of a married man who trivalises it like this - i'm not getting a dig but i am genuinely taken aback by the apparent consensus of guys using p that having a sexual act to a prostitute is fine - hey it's just a helpful MB tool :-)
I however i'm one of the lucky ones who was able to form my opinions of my own volition with out any negative experiences or strong religious and cultural influences.
no way have you - the society we live in provides us with value systems that are totally steeped in religious and cultural influences (pornography being one of them) there is no escaping it. no way were you brought up as liberally as you think you were.
ok, i guess i should have worded it differently. erotica is not inherently wrong, but using it to a pornographic end is.??
funny i found myself having to look up these definitions too on coming to this board - you're right though there is no time to debate or get pedantic about these definitions .
IMO this point is invalid because we all use tools and techniques when making love with our SO, like, imagination, sexy bedroom wear, extra lubrication etc.
yeah and all of them are dictated by the p industry. wonder wot new tools it will come up with for us - we'll end up strapped into some sort of orgasm inducing machine with surround p imagery enabling us in a new found sexuality and we'll still be calling it normal.
I think voyager, that your experiences of P and MB have probably been a lot worse than mine you also have spoken to people who have experienced worse case scenarios. so i understand why you have such a staunch no P no MB stance. ,
my h reckoned that despite this some of the guys here were still better off than him - they still had their wives.
i have changed because i want a healthy, happy and fulfilling relationship, on every level.
all the best to u both - u seem like nice people.
|
|
|
Post by mo4wo1 on Dec 20, 2007 22:08:39 GMT -5
Neil, Do you realize "Wiki" is simply a site where people can post their opinions & thoughts, thier own gatherings of info, for others to read? It is not an expert site. Also, it really doesn't matter what they think P is. I know what P is and so do you. If a person "enjoys" pics of shoes, that is thier P... regardless of what "Wiki" says or even Webster... which, BTW, defines P as: "1 : the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement 2 : material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement 3 : the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence> www.m-w.com/dictionary/pornographyHave you ever heard of "Gaslighting"? That's when person A does something while claiming and even swearing all along they did something else to, say, person B. You have made several statements & are now attempting to twist them to look like something else. You are presenting me with nothing new with this behavior that my own H hasn't done for the past 13 plus years. I know what you said. You were clear with every bit of it. I understood. I got it. Now saying it actually meant something else won't change your original words or points. Okay? Okay. Now, best thing to do, IMO, if you've a single chance in Heaven, Hell or on this planet, it will require you to accept your ideals about P & MB are wrong in so many ways. If you were right about them, any of them, would you be here? If you're here because your wife has "nagged you" until you gave in, you may want to reconsider your motives. Quiting to manipulate another person will not work or last. Saying the words, "I'm an SA." will not be enough. And simply stopping your usage will not be enough either. I guarantee that. Even without truly knowing you, what you have typed here is more than enough for me to see you have a very long way to go. Again, every single word you have said, even the comments about your wife's past & beliefs being a stumbling block WRT your's, is something my H has said to me or about me. More than a few partners of SA's have this common experience, if not all. It's called "Blame Shifting". I must stop here. This is a very frustrating experience for me, discussing this with you. You, IMO, are not really ready to accept your apparent situation... being an addict. If you ever get to that place, I pray I can be of some assistance. If not, G*d be with you & your wife. But either way, this work is yours & yours alone, if you so choose to do it & feel you are finally worthy of a truly healthy life... finally. But if you take anything I say as more than just a idiot's ramblings, please, for your own sake & your wife's, go & read "Out of the Shadows' & "Don't Call It Love", both by Dr. Patrick Carnes.
|
|
|
Post by gimmeshelter on Dec 20, 2007 22:17:25 GMT -5
Neil,
I hope you're right. I hope you can stop this behavior and rationalize, then intellectualize your way to a new life. I hope that P isn't inherently wrong for you and that it never gets a passing thought from you or your wife a year for now. Because let me tell you what it does to me:
It fools me into thinking I've got it licked, then it shows up full force and kicks the hell out of my life.
It makes me look like a fool in front of my wife when I boast about my new leaf and then go back to her 2 months later with my next great plan to get it out of my life.
It has forced me to have only supervised Internet use like a 10 year old because I can't keep myself out of trouble.
It makes me less kind to my wife when I've figured out a way around all of the filters, restrictions, and cable locks and get caught-I get snippy with them for calling me out.
Did I mention that I ogle women everywhere I go and think they want to sleep with me when I'm using? Very classy.
I have been on this board for 7 months and have seen suicidal men, jailed men, and men who have lost everything-wives and jobs-because they lost their fight.
Probably the stuff's not really that bad. I just hope you can run real fast-like sub 4 minute miles. I really do want that for you because you don't want to feel like some of us down the road.
|
|
|
Post by alyson on Dec 21, 2007 11:56:44 GMT -5
Neil, I just want you to know that I BELIEVE IN YOU. I know in my heart you dont yet have a full revelation of where you are, but just coming here in the first place is recognition and learning. The reason I say that is because the more I question you, the more information I discover and since this addiction has been discovered, i have seen it grow in size with each new thing you tell me. Guys, as Wes said, please give him room to grow. He has grown so much in the last few days, and I have ridden an emotional rollercoaster. I love you, my Husband and am here waiting for this road to end xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
|
|
|
Post by amaninfull on Dec 21, 2007 16:13:00 GMT -5
Several things tell me that this is not true: a) my own experience (I was more addicted to porn than I was to cigarettes; I was also less addicted to cigarettes than other people I know) b) the experience of others I've discussed this subject with c) my observations from reading about the experiences of others on this board and elsewhere d) scientific studies (albeit second-hand: I've been told by a psychologist that studies have shown differing degrees of addiction), and finally e) common sense.
I suppose there are a few ways one might measure degree of addiction: how hard is it to quit? how easy is it to stay off? how much damage is it doing? In each case, it's not hard to imagine that one person might be more addicted than another.
I'm not quite sure where the frequently-repeated notion of "there's no such thing as more or less addicted" comes from, or exactly what its purpose is, but it doesn't seem to me to be doing anyone a service. People vary in everything - absolutely everything. Why should addiction be the sole exception?
|
|
|
Post by mo4wo1 on Dec 21, 2007 18:58:08 GMT -5
"Several things tell me that this is not true:
a) my own experience (I was more addicted to porn than I was to cigarettes; I was also less addicted to cigarettes than other people I know)" Anecdotal evidence does not erase the facts. Personal experiences are nothing more than that & they never over ride facts. They need to be kept in perspective. Either a person is addicted... or they are not. Period. One may have progressed further with one addiction than another, but that does not mean they were "more addicted". And how far one progresses does not automatically dictate how well their recovery will go, how many relapses they will have, if any, and whether they will slip or not. The notion that one is "more addicted" would solidify that. I.e., more addicted equals "more recovery work & failures". Not always so!
"b) the experience of others I've discussed this subject with" Again, anecdotal.
"c) my observations from reading about the experiences of others on this board and elsewhere" Try reading more than personal accounts. Those can be biased & misleading & have a tendency to over look & not mention factors, facts, ect.
"d) scientific studies (albeit second-hand: I've been told by a psychologist that studies have shown differing degrees of addiction), and finally" Yes, a person can progress more with one addiction than another, but a person is either addicted or not... not "more addicted".
"e) common sense." I'll let that one go.
"I suppose there are a few ways one might measure degree of addiction: how hard is it to quit? how easy is it to stay off? how much damage is it doing? In each case, it's not hard to imagine that one person might be more addicted than another.
I'm not quite sure where the frequently-repeated notion of "there's no such thing as more or less addicted" comes from, or exactly what its purpose is, but it doesn't seem to me to be doing anyone a service. People vary in everything - absolutely everything. Why should addiction be the sole exception?" Actually, claiming to be "more addicted" to something because "you" say it was harder for "you" to recover from it belittles other's experiences who were able to recover from that same addiction, even when they may have progressed further into the addiction.
And, it's an easy cop-out for addicts when that don't succeed in recovery or relapse or "slip".
Absolutely people vary in things. But addictions are addictions and either you are or you aren't.
|
|
|
Post by dazednconfused on Dec 21, 2007 19:48:17 GMT -5
This thread should get fun. Hmm, lets debate P, MB, Erotica, and adultry. What board is this again? well, the problem is that sometimes we try to "force" revelation to a newbie too soon. They need to come to their "senses" about this addiction in their own recovery, in their own time. Just like we can yell to an active addict "YOUR AN ADDICT" and they can rationalize themselves out of it, we can yell certain revelations we have had in recovery to a recovering addict before they are ready and they will argue that we are (wrong, harsh, stupid, moraslly bias, etc..) I know my husband had to come to the adultry revelation slowly, in part because he needed to deal with the pain that caused head on then, but allso in part because the "it's not really cheating" mantra was part of the addictive process for him. It was ok to p/mb because it wasn't really cheating. With recovery he saw not only was it infidelity, but cheating me and out children of time, intimacy, presence, etc... BUT I could have stood up and shouted that in his ear, didn't make a difference untill he had the revelation himself. Sometimes time is the best help for these questions
|
|
|
Post by gimmeshelter on Dec 22, 2007 11:56:59 GMT -5
Neil, We really do earnestly want you to succeed, in fact I am praying for that for you and Alyson. I guess my concern is that your recovery will have to come from a much deeper level, one where you are truly sorry about what has happened up to this time. While trying to work out the deeper moral questions may be a nice exercise, it will not get you closer to recovery. Look inside and see if you have true sorrow. This is what I hope for you, good luck my friend. I realize my comments may have been a little tough, so I'll back off and wish you the best!
|
|
neil
New Member
Posts: 6
|
Post by neil on Dec 22, 2007 12:48:03 GMT -5
Hi all, thank you for all your comments and words of encouragement. just to make a few things clear, i still maintain that MB is normal and natural etc etc. and that P is not inherently wrong either but the expliotation and abuse and objectification of women that goes hand in hand etc.. is wrong and horrible. The reason i first came here was not to seek help or to change my behavior but because my wife had come here first and i was furious that she had started discussing our private problems with strangers, and the first response that i read(originally directed to my wife), was someone with strong christian views. 'OH F*** i thought' she is on some crazy religious website these people are going to fill her head up with utter rubbish (No offence, most of the religious types i know are the wisest kindest people i know). It's just that i have read stuff and seen programs on telly and i know there are some real weirdo's with very extreme views out there(i understand that i was working on assumption and stereotype, and so on and so on). I posted on here because i wanted to tell my side of the story and to throw a cat among the pigeons, i knew it would be slightly contentious and was expecting flack and a barrage of narrow minded abuse from insane American evangelists. BUT>>>> what i found, despite being banned within 20 minutes, was that i was met with support, kindness, understanding and sensitivity and was re-instated. since then i have come to accept that my behavior was wrong within our relationship and that, i would have to not just stop in order to do the right thing by Alyson, but that i would have to change my whole mindset. spending time here has been a very helpful tool in achieving that goal. I am still P free and have not thought about or been temped to seek it out, I have also remained MB free despite being temped every now and again. I have noticed something else is happening to my mindset, when i see an attractive lady my eyes do not automatically wander south to appreciate her body lustfully. instead i am struck by how beautiful her smile is, or by a sparkle in her eye and recognise her beauty without lustful feelings. I think that using P regularly over the years had slowly eroded something in me about the way i see and feel about women and i am now re-humanising. I am seeing Alyson in whole new light and my love for her is groing deeper. I feel confident that i will succeed and that our relationship will move from strength to strength, i am also sure that at some point in the future i will be tempted to fall back into my old patterns but if i hold myself accountable and remain honest with Alyson, then i will overcome it. to sumerise, i came here to justify my behavior and have instead adopted some of the views and opinions actively promoted here, which serve to help me become a better stronger husband and father. After all, it wouldn't be very open minded if i didn't at least listen and think about what you all have said.
neil
|
|
|
Post by gimmeshelter on Dec 23, 2007 11:45:28 GMT -5
Awesome! Very good news Neil. By the way, I had a very similar experience regarding noticing the beauty of a woman again. It's in my Journal, but the long and short was that I was in church and looking at the choir and noticing the wonderful glow coming from the women's faces as they sang. I realized that up until that time when I was in that situation I had been more interested in scanning their bodies and looking for a fantasy object. It's nice to see women for what they really are-beautiful beings with warmth and love, not P objects.
|
|