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Post by MrOuch on Dec 18, 2007 22:46:15 GMT -5
Neil,
Welcome to the board. Hopefully you will follow onedayatatime's advice. Look around, read other's journals and observe. I think you'll find much here that is of benefit to you and alyson.
One comment on what you wrote in your opening of this thread. I didn't really realize the extent that porn had come to pervade my life until I made a real effort at eliminating it. I didn't consider myself a porn addict. Porn was just there and I could use it or not as I saw fit. My wife was the one with the problem. She couldn't accept the fact that women were willing to do it. People were eagerly producing, marketing and distributing it. Porn was a legitimate business. There was nothing illegal about it, maybe just a little immoral, but nobody was getting hurt by it. Right?
I have come to realize that this is the big lie of porn. It passes itself off as a legitimate enterprise, when in fact it is a cancer on society. It teaches us men that our needs come first above all else. It teaches us that if it feels good, do it. It teaches us to view women as sources of pleasure. It teaches us that it's our right to be self-focused and self-centered. It tells us it's okay to download porn late at night and satisfy ourselves. It teaches us to lie to those we love.
Many times in the past I decided that I would give up porn for REAL this time. This would be it. I was done. I wasn't coming back for it ever again. I made it too. I made it about 30 days clean and then I relapsed--viewing porn, MB, the whole nine yards. That's when I realized how difficult this thing was to give up. Porn wasn't just something that I could give up so easily. In a certain sense it had become part of me.
No matter how much I professed that porn was only a tool that I used occasionally, I could no longer deny its hold on me. When this hit me, the blame-shifting stopped. I took full responsibility for my life and I was FINALLY able to move on.
Anyway, that's my story. Read what you want to on this board. Look inside yourself. Be clean today.
MrOuch
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Post by gimmeshelter on Dec 19, 2007 0:28:22 GMT -5
Only a few things to say:
"Masturbation is a very normal thing".
I have heard this now for 25+ years from health class on. I am starting to come to the conclusion that it is NOT a normal thing at all. This mantra is a bunch of babble created by those who want to chip away at the moral fabric of society. The end result is we also glorify bimbidiots like Paris and Britney and the news looks more and more like the Enquirer every day. It is a SOCIETAL LIE.
I am an addict, and I used all of those same rationalizations. I especially loved the "high sex drive" one. I thought I needed P and MB to feed my super high drive too. Turns out that my wife thought I was lousy in bed and just had a low libido. Now isn't that ironic?
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neil
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Post by neil on Dec 19, 2007 8:25:02 GMT -5
i have done much thinking and research of PA and SA addiction over the last few days, i have been following my wifes discussions in this forum and reading many arguments for and against else where. I have reached the following conclusions. P is not inherently wrong in itself but the exploitation of and corruption that goes hand in hand with the P industry is Horrible and wrong. i have also decided that there is no space for P in my marriage because i now accept that looking at other women while engaging in MB is a form of adultery. I have also admitted to myself and to my wife that i am a SA and that my MB was out of control, and that my elevated sex drive is trained that way by my constant MB over the years. I still however maintain that MB is a normal and natural expression of a persons sexuality regardless of age, gender,marital status and cultural or religious beliefs etc. However if it is affecting a persons life adversely then it needs to be stopped, but it is not enough to just have a battle against your urges and control the physical addiction, the focus should be why has this addiction occurred in the first place and too seek the answers there. I know that my MB was excessive and hurtful to my wife, so i have stopped MB completely and have not thought about P even once. The true object of my desire is my wife and i have been thinking about her instead. We have made compromises and are almost meeting half way, my side of this is to be completely honest with her about my feelings and desires, not to MB or look at P and to be accountable to her and to look to her in order to meet my needs for intimacy and sexual desire. I have not MB since Sunday morning and i have not looked at P since Sunday night (when i was caught). i am positive that P is not an addiction for me, just a helpful MB tool. I am sure that by not MB my sex drive and my wifes will eventually find a harmonious balance. Which just leaves the disagreement we have about where the boundaries are, and about what is acceptable and what is not. Although she is not very open minded or accepting of different opinions to her own, i have to understand that her views were formed by a background of abuse and negativity followed by becoming a christian. I however i'm one of the lucky ones who was able to form my opinions of my own volition with out any negative experiences or strong religious and cultural influences. I was wrong to think i can just make her change her mind about the way she feels, so the best thing i can do is be supportive and loving instead of disdainful of her opinions. TEMPTATION. ..... so far there has been no temptation to seek out P but a few days onto my new life of no MB i and finding things things a little uncomfortable.
wish me luck
neil
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Post by Curious Voyager on Dec 19, 2007 9:36:09 GMT -5
Good luck Neil, cause you're gonna need it.
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Your addict voice will repeat this to you like a siren's song. The "normal and natural" expression of human "sexuality" involves intimate emotional and physical contact with another person. Not the selfish isolated act of masturbation.
*
Pornography might or might not be an addiction for you. But you addict voice is speaking here again. "a helpful MB tool" If MB is normal and natural why does one need a helpful tool?
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Your addict voice will repeat this to you frequently too. IF only she would be more open, I wouldn't have a problem.
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This is convenient for your addict. She is wrong because of this and always will be.
*
Again convenient. You're right now and always will be. Your addict voice will love this.
*
This means her opinions are wrong and you are right. But being a good guy you will put your needs and desires aside? Isn't the best thing you can do is a thorough self-examination of what all of this means in your life and exercising that ability you have to form opinions based on evidence not contaminated by ideas or experiences you don't like?
Neil, none of us formed our opinions in a vacuum. All of us men were brought up and taught man lies, we all had cultural and social experiences--good and bad. Unless you are open to even the possibility that everything you believe might be wrong or at least off a bit, then luck won't be enough.
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Post by Webmaster on Dec 19, 2007 9:56:57 GMT -5
Neil,
I think we all wish you luck. For me, it wasn't easy to give up either the p* or the mb because I used it as a drug to cope with painful emotions, including loneliness and boredom. It took years to put together any length of sobriety. And even now there is pain associated with sobriety, although not nearly as much as there used to be. I feel like I had to walk through fire to get to the other side of this thing, and the Beast of Addiction still lurks from time to time.
I remember one night feeling really pissed off that my wife wouldn't have sex with me. I probably had about six months of sobriety at that time... maybe more. My addicted mind-set always felt entitled to sex, and if my wife was not responsive to my come ons (I thought I was pretty damn seductive; boy, was I wrong), I'd get resentful. Resentment was one of the key triggers for me because, damnit, I was entitled. She's so frigid (she's not AT ALL, but it was a lie my addictive voice tried to convince me of) and I have so much testosterone, damnit, I just need some relief. All lies that porn had trained my addictive voice to tell me.
One of the things I would do is refuse to fall asleep. I would tell my self that my sex deprivation was keeping me awake, but now I can see that I was more often than not choosing to stay awake so I could continue to resent the hell out of my wife when she fell asleep. Then I'd have a choice at two a.m.: act out or do something else. I remember one night just going down to basement and bouncing on the mini-trampoline and trying to pray as I jumped up and down and every other word of the prayer was the f-bomb: "Dear God, I'm am so (expletive)ing tired of this (expletive)ing addiction." After awhile I started to see myself for what I really was and started cracking up, and then crying. The catharsis didn't solve my problem, but it was a step along the road. I'm only sharing this with you to say, in my experience, this is a painful journey that we're taking and it has taken a lot of careful thinking, endurance and commitment. It hurts.
The only time my testicles hurt was when I'd binge on lust without MB. So if that happened, I knew I'd been lusting enough to cause myself physical pain. The real pain of recovery comes in the head and heart - at least for many of us.
I'm touched by your willingness to recognize your wife's feelings in all of this. I had to do the same. It hasn't been a negotiation however, where I said, I'm sober, so we need to have more sex now. That was an early approach I took which really didn't help either of us and just led to more resentment.
But I will say this: our sex life is more compatible than ever before (it's become more amazing and fulfilling than I care to discuss publicly). There are times I'm disappointed, and there are times she is accommodating. But the true intimacy has been mostly restored and our marriage as a whole is better than I ever knew it could be.
Best wishes,
Wes
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Post by mo4wo1 on Dec 19, 2007 11:25:48 GMT -5
Neil,
I am sure that once you begin you journey into true discovery & recovery, you will find many of your beliefs will likely change... such as P is not inherently bad or the one that basically says that your sex-drive is so high that you were actually doing your wife a favor by MB.
You have a huge hill of work to do ahead of you but living a fully healthy life truly is worth the constant effort.
My H is a SA and through my self-education on this topic (still have tons to learn) I have come to realize I too am an SA. This is hard stuff & is never as simple as we think & we are never as unscathed from our pasts as we assume, too.
Best wishes on your new journey. Mo
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tw45
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Post by tw45 on Dec 19, 2007 18:52:16 GMT -5
Just a thought that has been raised here and in other threads about wether p and mb are actually wrong.
I suggest that the way to know if something is good or bad or right or wrong is 'by their fruits you shall know them'. Is there any doubt about the results of p and mb. Does it bring any enlightenment, growth or fulfillment, does it make you a better person? or is it just one more way that society has embraced instant gratification that has no appreciation and leaves us empty and unsatisfied.
Can anyone honestly claim that p or mb is uplifting or makes them a better person. Can anyone honestly claim that anything truly good results from it.
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facingit
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Post by facingit on Dec 19, 2007 22:45:59 GMT -5
I have reached the following conclusions. P is not inherently wrong in itself but the exploitation of and corruption that goes hand in hand with the P industry is Horrible and wrong. i have also decided that there is no space for P in my marriage because i now accept that looking at other women while engaging in MB is a form of adultery. It's kind of funny Neil, I think the opposite is true: P is inherently wrong but I would not consider it adultry. It's funny how people look at things differently. Anyway, wrong or not, if you are suseptible to PA, then P can definitely mess up your life, that's for sure. Good luck in your recovery, however you choose to define it.
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neil
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Post by neil on Dec 20, 2007 6:29:10 GMT -5
I have reached the following conclusions. P is not inherently wrong in itself but the exploitation of and corruption that goes hand in hand with the P industry is Horrible and wrong. i have also decided that there is no space for P in my marriage because i now accept that looking at other women while engaging in MB is a form of adultery. It's kind of funny Neil, I think the opposite is true: P is inherently wrong but I would not consider it adultry. It's funny how people look at things differently. Anyway, wrong or not, if you are suseptible to PA, then P can definitely mess up your life, that's for sure. Good luck in your recovery, however you choose to define it. ok, i guess i should have worded it differently. erotica is not inherently wrong, but using it to a pornographic end is.?? some of my meanings and definitions are a little confused still. Some times i might say satisfaction when self gratification would have been more appropriate, or i might say religious instead of faith etc. curious voyager... "Pornography might or might not be an addiction for you. But you addict voice is speaking here again. "a helpful MB tool" If MB is normal and natural why does one need a helpful tool?" IMO this point is invalid because we all use tools and techniques when making love with our SO, like, imagination, sexy bedroom wear, extra lubrication etc. "Your addict voice will repeat this to you frequently too. IF only she would be more open, I wouldn't have a problem." I never said that? all i did was to state that we had a difference of opinion, reading between the lines you may have picked up that this made me feel angry at the time. "Neil, none of us formed our opinions in a vacuum. All of us men were brought up and taught man lies, we all had cultural and social experiences--good and bad. Unless you are open to even the possibility that everything you believe might be wrong or at least off a bit, then luck won't be enough." again we have a miss understanding, I was brought up in a good house hold by loving caring parents, i formed my opinions and belifs about religion or (world faiths) by learning a little of each and realizing that they all have differences and similarities and then forming my own opinions, rather than having one teaching that is imposed upon me forever biasing my opinions. the same goes for culture, morality, sexuality and manhood. I am not saying that all the opinions i formed were the correct ones, or that to be brought up less liberally is wrong either. I think voyager, that your experiences of P and MB have probably been a lot worse than mine, you also have spoken to people who have experiened worse case scenarios. so i understand why you have such a staunch no P no MB stance. it is ok to soften a little and to agree to disagree with me. i am not going to try and prize open a chink in you anti P armour To Wes,.... i want to thank you for allowing me back in to express my feelings and thoughts un-biasedly. your encouragement, kindness and understanding have helped me to take a fresh and much healthier view of P, MB, and have also helped me to consider my wife and her feelings through all of this. Not only have i quit P and MB, but more importantly i have come round to changing my thoughts and feelings about it, i didn't want to just stop MB because Alyson didn't like it, this would have led to further resentment and then relapse. i have changed because i want a healthy, happy and fulfilling relationship, on every level. My problem was possibly not as serious nor as destructive as many who have come to this forum, but it had the potential to become worse and to have become a downward spiral of denial and self gratification, eventually prizing my family apart and destroying our happiness altogether. I am Happy that i have decided to beat it now before it grows worse. neil
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Post by P on Dec 20, 2007 8:40:41 GMT -5
It's kind of funny Neil, I think the opposite is true: P is inherently wrong but I would not consider it adultry. Sidebar here...sorry but facingit as a Christian man you do not consider porn adultery? Matt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
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Post by mo4wo1 on Dec 20, 2007 8:57:44 GMT -5
Neil, What have you done so far to educate yourself on this topic? Why I ask this is because knowledge, real knowledge, is power. *ETA: And not because I think I am so much smarter than you, lol. I have no clue about that. But because these notions you, these statements of yours, just don't meld with the facts of what SA is. And if you have this addiction, from what I have read & learned you are an SA period. Here's a list of my preferred sites for info & some books on the subject: www.sexhelp.com/*I took the Sexual Addiction Screening Test (SAST) myself and it was very helpful for me. The test & my researching this topic helped me to recognize & accept my own addiction as well as help me understand my H's addiction behaviors better than ever. www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Sex/sexual_addiction/partners.aspwww.recoverynation.com/* One note of caution about this site: It makes lots of noises & sounds when you navigate through it. www.medicinenet.com/sexual_addiction/article.htm"Don't Call It Love" by Patrick Carnes, Ph.D. "Out of the Shadows" by Patrick Carnes, Ph.D. "Not Just Friends" by Shirley Glass and Jean Coppock Staeheli * A member here with an amazing book list of her own recently recommended this. I read it several months ago but not fully. But what I did get from it was helpful & the recent recommendation of it has stirred my interest again. I found mine at my local library. You may have it available to you at yours. "Toxic Parents: Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life" by Susan Forward and Craig Buck Now, I want to address a few of your points. Not to challenge you for aggression's sake but rather to maybe bring up some points you haven't considered or maybe should reconsider. "erotica is not inherently wrong, but using it to a pornographic end is.??"What other use would there be, seriously? P is there to titillate & so is "erotica". This sounds like a defensive reactive answer. Again, I believe once in true recovery, I think your opinion of this will change. "IMO this point is invalid because we all use tools and techniques when making love with our SO, like, imagination, sexy bedroom wear, extra lubrication etc."Actually, no we do not "all" use tools. This is a falsehood. Just like the idea that all men MB & use P is a lie, just like men are more s*xual than women unless they are a P actress, just like all P actresses are actually enjoying themselves & if "your" wife wasn't such a prude/damaged she'd enjoy "it" too, just like all men need more so they're doing a favor to go elsewhere for s*xual relief (even if "elsewhere" is themselves) and so on. "I never said that? all i did was to state that we had a difference of opinion, reading between the lines you may have picked up that this made me feel angry at the time." Reading this: "she is not very open minded or accepting of different opinions" I see it as "blame-shifting". Regardless of what you may be blaming her for -- the need to MB because she's a "prude" (for lack of a better word), your disagreements are due to her changes, whatever -- you are placing the blame for your choices at her feet. It just is what it is, period. And yes, this is a hugely "normal" behavior WRT addictions. "again we have a miss understanding, I was brought up in a good house hold by loving caring parents, i formed my opinions and beliefs about religion or (world faiths) by learning a little of each and realizing that they all have differences and similarities and then forming my own opinions, rather than having one teaching that is imposed upon me forever biasing my opinions. the same goes for culture, morality, sexuality and manhood. I am not saying that all the opinions i formed were the correct ones, or that to be brought up less liberally is wrong either."Even the "best of homes" and "best of parents" have addicted children. Regardless, it's a lie to think your world didn't influence you and thereby "help raise you". We are not just a product of nature. And our parents are not the only ones that nurtured & taught us. "I think voyager, that your experiences of P and MB have probably been a lot worse than mine, you also have spoken to people who have experienced worse case scenarios. so i understand why you have such a staunch no P no MB stance. it is ok to soften a little and to agree to disagree with me. i am not going to try and prize open a chink in you anti P armour. "Again, with an education on this topic & once in real recovery, IMO (and it is my hope) you will realize there is no such thing as "more addicted & less addicted". The consequences any of us here -- addicts, co-addicts, SO, partner -- may & are experiencing may differ in some details but the overriding point is we are all experiencing them. And believe it or not, we're all more alike than not. One person's forms of a/o may be worse in your eyes than yours, one's life may have been harder so far than yours, but do yourself a favor... yourself & your wife & realize your road is going to be just as hard to travel, very much worth it & different than the one you are on right now. And that's okay. If you & your wife are able to heal before this brings about worse consequences than it has already, you are blessed. But do not be surprised if you come to realize the consequences you both are living with are worse than you realized, are ones you have actually "over looked" or are in denial about, are far more reaching than you realized or are yet to come. I wish you well & know patience will be something you too will need to learn & gather in abundance. May you be blessed with it, tenfold. P.S. My H was unable to call himself an addict until the other night, some 5 to 6 months after first facing this as an addiction & over 2 years after he (yes, my H) first suggested he may be an addict... something I had initially refused to even see as a real possibility. My words, "There's no such thing as an addiction to P! You're just making excuses!" Boy, if only we both knew then what we know now & have yet to learn. Also, I have come to realize I too am a SA. We are both in individual therapy & plan to start couple's therapy soon, for the second time.
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neil
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Post by neil on Dec 20, 2007 13:13:42 GMT -5
"erotica is not inherently wrong, but using it to a pornographic end is.??" What other use would there be, seriously? P is there to titillate & so is "erotica". This sounds like a defensive reactive answer. Again, I believe once in true recovery, I think your opinion of this will change.
P is, in its broadest state, the explicit representation of the human body or sexual activity with the goal of sexual arousal and/or sexual relief. It is similar to erotica, which is the use of sexually-arousing imagery for mainly artistic purposes. 'from WIKI'
this was the definition i used when checking up on the exact meaning of the word, i got it out of wiki.
i'm sure that there are other definitions with slight differences and we could argue about them all day and get nowhere.
*"again we have a miss understanding, I was brought up in a good house hold by loving caring parents, i formed my opinions and beliefs about religion or (world faiths) by learning a little of each and realizing that they all have differences and similarities and then forming my own opinions, rather than having one teaching that is imposed upon me forever biasing my opinions. the same goes for culture, morality, sexuality and manhood. I am not saying that all the opinions i formed were the correct ones, or that to be brought up less liberally is wrong either."
Even the "best of homes" and "best of parents" have addicted children. Regardless, it's a lie to think your world didn't influence you and thereby "help raise you". We are not just a product of nature. And our parents are not the only ones that nurtured & taught us.*
I thought i had already made this clear..... i dont dispute what you said and all you have done is to re-agree with my statement thinking that you were saying something new.
I think that i must just be really bad at expressing myself with words and they just come out clumsily. So if you get the basic gist of what i say then there is no need to post a load of random quotes re-defining them in your own words or being picky over exact dictionary meanings.
i would like to point out that i am not blame shifting either, i have already accepted full responsibility for my SA and my lying about it to my wife. i was only stating that our boundaries are set in different places and therefore we both need to work together in order to meet halfway , i have done this by admitting to my addiction learning to understand why P and excessive MB are unhealthy and that any MB in our relationship was damaging. Alyson has done this by being very forgiving understanding and supportive of my problem despite feeling devastated by what has happened.
I know that without her forgiveness and support i would have faltered by now.
I agree with you on your point that a person is either an addict or not, and that you cant have different degrees of addiction, and thank you for wishing me luck and patience
still no MB and i haven't even thought about P, and so far it is turning out to be really easy because the physical aspect of it is, well.. easy,... and i have already accepted and changed my way of thinking which is the hard part.
thankyou all for your comments and support
neil
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Post by LookingUp on Dec 20, 2007 13:24:28 GMT -5
Hi neil, I'm glad you've chosen to give up your behavior that was causing pain to your wife and marriage. I'm glad it's currently easy for you to abstain. I don't want to alarm you, but often withdrawal doesn't happen until a couple weeks of sobriety. There are many good threads where withdrawal is discussed. Here's one I particularly like: lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=1190403140&page=1#1190459212 The reason I'm pointing this out now, is so you won't be blindsided IF you are an addict who goes through it. LookingUp
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facingit
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Post by facingit on Dec 20, 2007 15:47:23 GMT -5
It's kind of funny Neil, I think the opposite is true: P is inherently wrong but I would not consider it adultry. Sidebar here...sorry but facingit as a Christian man you do not consider porn adultery? Matt 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. That is true. The way I've always thought about that saying is that if you look on a woman with rampant sexual desire, that is adultry in your heart - in other words if you look at someone and think of what you would like to/ with them if you could. However, for me P never really had a feeling or real desire behind it - or if it did it quickly faded. I don't think I ever really "desired" to be with those P actresses in any real way. P was strangley sexless in a way. It just became an empty, unfulfilling, compulsive ritual that I used to numb my feelings - literally the same way someone might use alcohol or drugs - so I hesitate to label this "adultry."
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Post by Healing Rain on Dec 20, 2007 16:08:23 GMT -5
Whether or not you felt you were using the women in P in a sexual way.... you were using them as objects to fulfil a certian level of sexual needs of your own. They are real women, regardless of how you feel towards them and regardless of why they were participating in the P. You are narrowing the scripture way too much. If everyone was aware of every single subconcious thought they had, we would be a completely different set of individuals with probably alot less problems. But that isn't reality. If you've achieved sexual release to images, thoughts, feelings... whatever you want to name it.... while engaging in your addiction (I say it this way because porn isnt the end or beginning of the addiction and isnt always the desired acting out stimulius), and you are married, you have committed adultry. Whether or not you feel that you have is really irrilivant. The lord knows, and thats what is relevant.
And of course this is my opinion... a very strong one, I will admit... But the one thing I've learned the most walking this walk is that you can not change what you will not hold your self accountable for. If you do not hold yourself accountable for going outside your marriage vows for sexual release, you can not change the dynamic that your actions have caused.
Maybe thats a better way to simplify this. If you have gone outside of your marriage vows to achieve sexual release, satisifaction, gratification, stimulation... you have committed infidelity. Its really rather simple. And justification only stands in your way.
~Rain~
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