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Post by hugs4u002 on Dec 12, 2007 9:53:57 GMT -5
This is an email I received from s/o p/a.....after being on this board just a short time, I am seeing more clearly what is going on........I think this is called gaslighting and blameshifting, correct? So anyone want to take a stab at what this email is truly all about? I apologize ahead of time if you get a headache from reading this LOL........
I am at a loss as to how I am continually being met with failure at every turn. It is a difficult time, and I appreciate that it in fact could be worse. Although that I was hopeful that by attacking each problem that the list would both shorten and get better, I am not having that experience. I'll remain strong and keep focused and continue to address each problem and find resolution. You know that dark cloud that overhangs us all for brief periods of time? This one.. this one feels like it's lasting at least a month so far, or longer. I know that there are major stress indicators, like losing a job... a loved one... health concerns.. financial stress... I have got all four of those in play now along with a few others to boot. All in all, though my mental state has swayed from frustration and anger and disheartenment, I know that I need remain positive and not succumb to giving up. I think I am typing this to you now for me than for you to be honest. I might as well share with you what I have been thinking in the back of my mind for a while now. I believe both you and I truely would like us to work out as a couple, and both believe we have the ingredients in play to have success, though each of us has our reservations and reason to doubt this. In the end, in my own mind I can honestly say that I can see the time when you no longer should have enter your day as to doubt me or my activity. Here I am without you and it is not present nor do I wish it to be ever again. That remains to be seen as a test of my will and committment to myself. I understand where my weakness stems from, it is not where you think. It is not a sexual thing. Though I can feel confident in myself to know that I can succeed with what we both share as an issue for me...I cannot say or have confidence in what I feel are my issues with you. I am certain you could in fact repeat the very words back to me in reverse. Knowing that we have no chance together as long as any of these issues remain in our lives, as we have proven now for the past year with so many break ups... the question is simply, can both of us, succeed on our own with our issues? I already know I do not wish to have us get back together as long as you have the thinking and behavior within you that feels you need to check up on me. For me, we can only succeed when your thinking changes to that of, I will not fall victim to wondering, and expanding on that wondering that causes me to search for answers. I will not do this simply because I realize that the moment I fall victim to it, damage is done immediately to myself, to our relationship and to Chad. Further, even if we both can arrive at these places both of us deserve and we as a couple deserve, in my opinion we still have perhaps even a larger obstacle in our path to happiness together. You may feel this way too, I do not know. I know there was a time you used to, so I will assume to some extent you still do. Simply.. what is our committment to one another should we try and make a relationship we share work? I know what it means to me. It means, love, respect, fidelity and all of those things that you value and the things that I value, but more.. much more to me... it means... when things are bad, even really bad, even worse than they have been between us, that you have promised me and have every intention of keeping that promise even when you feel you have every right not too. It means, if we still love each other, and we both still want to make it work out, as was the case in every single instance of of any problem we ever had so far, that breaking up , is not a solution to our problem. Are you following me? Sincerely I mean this, both from my wishing to break up and your wishing to. That we loved each other, and still both wanted to be with noone else in our lives except each other, says to me... we work it out. We do not break up. That is too easy an answer and we will never survive as a couple, which is evidenced by our history the last 12 months. I realize this sounds all too simple, but I believe it is that simple. Even though I realize our problems are more complex. Now I have been single for I dont know what length of time we have been broken up. Not only am I not dating, I have no interest in dating. That is not to make you feel good, that is simply because, there is only one woman I want to have in my life, and actually receive the part of me I wish to give anyone. Because I feel that way, it eliminates in me, any thoughts, feelings, inclinations or motivation to want to date "another woman". It is that simple. Also, I have every right to any behavior I have exhibited in the past without concern or concealment or judgement. The only one that matters now is my judgement of myself. Thats important, as I am around me 24 hours daily. I do not believe you fully grasp what that means to me as yet, but thats ok, I do. Now what you have been doing with yourself and by yourself while single is none of my business. Nor, do I wish to know such things even if you wanted to discuss them honestly and openly. They are the poisons to our minds I speak to you about, but fall victim to myself too easily. For example, you do not wish to watch horror movies, or things involving ugliness in people. I respect that about you a great deal. Why allow such poison to enter your mind, right? Likewise, I can see certain poisons you do allow into your mind with regards only to me, and yet, i miss the ones that I allow to enter my mind, not to do with you. I thought about this just last night watching that stupid show "I love New York". For whatever distraction and enternmainment value it offers, and for the most part I think it harmless, it does nonetheless dull my mind with wasting my time watching bahviours in people who I cannot value or respect. It is in fact that car wreck curiousity in just a different and milder form. Likewise, porno same thing. Talking to women on line... same thing. i do no respect these things nor value the people behind and in them. Yet, here I am and allow them space in my mind. Hypocritical, wouldnt you say? Now with all this being said above one problem still remains. And even if we have success with everything mentioned above, this last thing can in fact and has in fact caused our break ups. Sex. It is your issue with me, not mine with you. What i can tell you now very honestly and sincerely is that, though there is hope for it to get better, both in quality and quantity, I have to assume based on what I know about myself, that it wont. I do not want to raise expectations as dissapointment can only result. ( As (my dog) has his head on my thigh looking up at me) What a good boy... smiling. He wont even ;let me typoe as his paws now on my arms ., standing on hind legs and a lick to the face and anothr., These are my thoughts I was hesitant to share with you. If you dont agree.. I certainly understand.
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Post by Curious Voyager on Dec 12, 2007 10:11:37 GMT -5
I don't have enough context to give an assessment or interpretation of this strangers words. But I will share what it evokes in me feelings wise.
I see a deep-seated pain and an attempt to be humble and yet resistance to that as well.
I see internal conflict, that part is easy for me to feel, having been there so long my Self.
I see the opening up to the idea of recovery and the desire is expressed to change.
I feel a great sense of uncertainty and hesitation to ask for anything direct and yet there is a pleading quality to it.
huggs, I don't have a clue what you are expecting from posting this highly personal seeming tortured communications. It's hard, sometimes almost impossible for addicts to express their true thoughts and emotions to others since we are often not able to connect to them our Selfs.
I see pain and regret. I feel empathy for him and sorrow for you.
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Post by Mayberry on Dec 12, 2007 10:18:25 GMT -5
May I say that, mainly, I am struck by how absent his concern for YOU seems to be in this? This strikes me as being mainly "all about him," and I'm troubled by that. I do not know your situation well enough to be much help, I'm afraid, but I will tell you what I am hearing, knowing neither of the parties involved. This paragraph seems to set the tone: I feel, as I read it, that he is talking to himself, and the last line of his paragraph hints at that, if not outright says that. On my initial read, I feel a lot of self-pity working, set in the tone of the passive language "I am being met with failure"; *he* is not failing, he is "being met with" failure. Curious. I am disturbed by this "sharing": "I understand where my weakness stems from, it is not where you think." Okay, friend, cut through the mystery and share it then. I am also disturbed by how "managing" this paragraph seems: he's got his "weakness" under control, and you are to believe that because, well, because he's said so. Beyond that, you are not to enter your day with doubt about him. Hmmm. Furthermore, there's some "slamming" of you going here: he had addressed (so he says) the concern you both share about him, but he has no confidence that any of his concerns can be heard by you? Wow! What kind of nasty person are you? (Yes, I'm being sarcastic.) Ugly stuff and I would not receive this well. IMO, big fat ugly paragraph. He seems to be saying 1) YOU have issues that you are not addressing (a topic introduced in the preceding paragraph) and 2) "we" will only succeed at HIS sobriety when YOU stop checking up on him. That is a crock of bull. Sorry. We've got a loser there. Whether or not you need to check on him for your own health (which is a different question entirely) has NOTHING to do with whether HE will succeed in HIS sobriety, IMO. He seems to be saying, "Real love puts up with anything." This seems to be playing on the guilt strings pretty heavily and is, IMO, another crock of bull. Again, he makes reference to your lack of understanding. The message seems to me to be "I'm in control, I understand, and (drum roll) I am FAITHFUL to you even though you're pretty dense, not to mention laden with your own problems and far too concerned with my problem." Yuck. Why yes, I *would* say "hypocritical." Let's all say it together. HYPOCRITICAL. Now, did we catch the part where YOUR fidelity is called into question? Not only are you too dense to understand what his problem really is, not only are you the largest part of his problem, not only are you overly controlling, not only do you not *really* love enough because you won't put up with abuse, but now YOU are unfaithful. And, to top it off, not only are you unfaithful, but he won't listen to whatever your reality is (doesn't want to "know about it"). You are both FRIGID with him, and suspect as unfaithful? Edited to add: Or is it that you are overly sexual with him and thus suspect as unfaithful? I'm not sure. End edit. Wow. You just can't win, can you? Can we say "insane"? Let's say it together: INSANE. And, to top of the charming leg-counting this email provides for you, you are INADEQUATE in the sex department. (Quick: write about the dog, try to distract from that little dig.) GOOD GOLLY MOSES, what a crock of crap. Even the dog is faithful and smiling and loving and can't leave him alone for a second. WHY CAN'T YOU BE MORE LIKE HIS DOG? ? (AAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH) Edited to add: I may have misread this. Is he telling you that he has no problem with you, sexually, but that he will never live up to your sexual expectations of HIM? I'm confused. Are you to expect nothing of him beyond what you'd expect of a dog? I'm confused. Well, dear, I can certainly understand why he'd hesitate to share these lovely thoughts with you, and I certainly hope you don't agree with his summation. DISGUSTING. ALL OF IT. DISGUSTING, blaming. No invitation to conversation, lots of shifting topic and, bottom line: YOU ARE NOT ENOUGH LIKE HIS DAMNED DOG. Edited to add: back to the dog thing...you don't accept his love as "enough" for you? (((((hugs4u002)))))))) I'm sorry you received this; I'm sorry you're going through this.
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Post by gracebyfaith on Dec 12, 2007 10:33:11 GMT -5
I'm with Mayberry. I am not as skilled as "saying what I see" as that dear lady is, but I too thought it was a pretty crappy letter, full of a lot of crazyness. It's nice that he "might as well share with you" what "has been in the back of my mind for a while now". Might as well, gee, thanks. It makes you sound terribly unimportant.
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Post by Curious Voyager on Dec 12, 2007 10:44:54 GMT -5
Who said context is important? Guy, where you at?
So here at least you have two different perspectives, neither right and neither wrong.
Just one comment and not intended to pick a fight. Every communication related to recovery and addiction I make to my Mo is abut me. I have explained this to her and I think she is beginning to see that. It's not possible for me, the addict trying to recover to communicate except from where I am at. The feelings and reactions she has are hers. And SOs because they have learned to deal with us in our addictive state also do have issues that need work. Otherwise why would SOs be here. To say my wife has issues that need work that impact my recovery is not blame-shifting, it is an acknowledgment that I have caused damage to her and that needs attention and healing.
The addict bring addiction into the relationship and that deeply affects the dynamic of interpersonal communications and damage to wives, children, other family, even co-workers does occur and as part of the healing process they must be addressed.
Do you suppose that I, we're talking about me and my situation, could fully recover if Mo's issues where left to the side? Could we heal the damage I caused if we tried to sweep either of our feelings under the carpet? Recovery cannot occur in isolation unless the addict was already living a monastic lifestyle in some isolated remote cave without human interactions when addiction too place.
This "recovery" is a process and it's scary and it is painful. It's almost like surgery on the soul without any balm, at least at first.
Lastly and based on years of experience, I am very open to the idea that this man is a complete (expletive) in every single way and that he should be flogged, then whipped, then beaten and then put in jail for being an emotional terrorist and inhuman monster without a single redeeming quality. These sorts of men do exist. I might even be one of them but I pray not, although for many years that WAS my Self image. What kind of rational or sensitive communication can be expected from men who despise them selves almost completely and have not been working recovery for some length of time and with a certain robust enthusiasm?
ok that may have been more than one comment. But still not looking for a squabble.
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Post by Mayberry on Dec 12, 2007 10:51:52 GMT -5
I would not squabble with CV's read of the letter, and I agree that context is everything. I will only repeat that I'm concerned with the amount of leg-counting of YOU that this letter seems to carry with it as I read it; the sharing would seem more honest to me, I think, if he were talking more concretely about himself. CV's points about the communal healing process are spot-on, IMO. I am seeing too much managing and accounting of YOU in this letter, and very little managing and accounting of himself in this letter.
And then I pause, and I reflect on CV's point, which, for me, brings much of this into focus: "What kind of rational or sensitive communication can be expected from men who despise them selves almost completely and have not been working recovery for some length of time and with a certain robust enthusiasm?"
An interesting question then arises (or interesting to me). What do *you* feel when you read this letter, hugs? What questions does it raise in you? About yourself? About him? And, what sort of response does this letter generate in you? What do you want to say to him? Where does this conversation between the two of you go from here?
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Post by Curious Voyager on Dec 12, 2007 10:55:54 GMT -5
I too thought it was a pretty crappy letter, full of a lot of crazyness. I agree and please find me a sane addict for show and tell. This thing you all see, about her not sounding important. I have encountered that with my wife and with people here as well. You know I can't sit down and talk to this loser dude. But in group I have said--recovery is spelled with an I and not a you and that is what I see from my own weird addict perch. He has put himself squarely in the middle. When I have tried to tell my wife what and how I am feeling there have been many times when she immediately assumed ownership for my feelings. That's makes sharing even harder. It's taken us some time but we are getting there and for the record that coin does have another side--I am guilty of taking ownership of her feelings and responsibility for them sometimes and we both know that isn't healthy for me or her. Oh and context. This is posted in the general forum and it will get responded to in ways differently than in other forums. I hope I'm not coming across as defensive cause I don't feel that. But analyzing some stranger feelings and intentions or motives from a personal communications like this requires mystic ability. The only conclusion I can make accurately is that dude was trying to communicate something to hugs and it has to do with their relationship problems and his addiction. It seems he is attempting recovery but that is an inference.
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Post by hugs4u002 on Dec 12, 2007 11:25:48 GMT -5
Thank you CV and Mayberry and Gracebyfaith for your time and effort spent in your compassionate response to this request, I realize it is difficult to look at an email like this and be able to figure out what is going on and offer advice...I am looking for some support here from both sides because I am trying to figure out for myself if this man is worth fighting for, our battle this last year has stolen away a wonderful relationship we had and I hate giving up on it. His issues with me, I feel, have cropped up from what I found out initially about last Christmas. I had questioned his disinterest in sex with me throughout our 3 year relationship up until that point. I accepted his excuses of age, stress, smoking and overall tiredness from working on a house together (his house) but when I discovered he was m/b on daily basis and chatting with other women on line it blew up in my face.....I had no experience with sexual addiction so my attacks and snooping and viciousness were completely unsympathetic to what is truly going on and since then I have left him several times, I check up on him which he greatly hates and he refers to as invading his privacy........here is what I emailed him back, I don't even know anymore if MY communications with him are clear or what they need to be but here goes:
well, here's my return novel....o.k........ let's see if I can do this without pushing any triggers for you......first I am sorry that you are having a difficult time right now and if my absence is adding to this in anyway, I am sorry. I agree with you our biggest problem right now is my level of commitment to this relationship. I haven't noticed that in myself before as I always thought I am a very loyal person, but there is no loyalty in running away. Upon reflecting on this I came to realize where the problem lies, it is my belief system in regards to relationships. In my mind I always thought that if two people aren't married they are not at that level of commitment and my thought process in relationships went like this...dating, anything goes...........boyfriend/girlfriend, sexual monogamy.......marriage, commitment for life. I realize now in order for us to work out, I have to change my thoughts about the commitment process. I did not believe that you were at that level of commitment as we tend to perceive others realities to reflect our own. I believed that if you wanted to be with me the rest of your life that you would ask for my hand in marriage, I know, silly girl thoughts. Perhaps that is why it was much easier for me to step up to the boyfriend/girlfriend status. Although you state that you do not need to know about my personal life, rest assured that I am not dating or seeking to date anyone..I have not been with anyone in anyway. I feel the need to heal before subjecting someone to the mess called *****right now. Much of that is also tied up in the fact that I do love you and want more than anything to be with you. But as you know, I don't handle conflict well. I don't handle it at all, I either clam up and retreat or I run away, not good. I am not a fighter. I also believe in letting people learn their own lessons to a point. Can I change this, I believe so as the first step in changing faulty thinking is identifying the thought process that is faulty and being aware of it, a new belief system to replace the old. I do believe that we have a lot of love for each other and my disrespecting you by checking on you has to stop. No one should have to live with that and I don't expect you to. I have not lived my life before in that way and I don't want to live like that in the future either. I don't want to spend my days thinking about porn and sexual chat. It is an unbearable existence for me. It brings so much negative energy into our relationship that it overshadows all good things that I believe to be true in you. But no matter what my thoughts are it still gives me no right to invade your space, I do believe that. This is what I have been reading alot on, how to deal with my feelings when they start spiraling into the "what is he doing while I am gone" mentality. I would like to be able to walk out the door with confidence and spend my energy minding my own business, living my life, being my own person! I believe reading up on this has helped me change some of my thought process on this......I am beginning to understand that this truly is not about sex or any disatisfaction on your part in our relationship. It has taken a lot of reading on it to understand it and that is partly to do with my inexperience in dealing with this. I have learned that this has to do with chemistry and emotional adjustment...that masturbation produces a chemical high which is on the same level as an opiate high. My perception in many ways has been wrong, but my emotional reaction very predictable. ...this article may help you to better understand my emotional reactions to it:
Exercise 9 Ask yourself the following: “If my partner did the things that I have done—exactly as I have done them—what would I need in order to rebuild my trust in him/her?” Really think about this. What would you want from them, expect from them, demand from them? Share these thoughts in your Recovery Manager and/or Recovery Thread. What your partner needs is to have the opportunity to regain control over her life. To identify the ways in which your addiction has affected her. How it has influenced her value system. How it has violated the boundaries that she once held. She needs to have the freedom to explore the damage your behavior has caused and the freedom to repair it. And this is just the beginning. This healing process is not something that you can do for her, nor is it something that she can do as easily without you. Make sure you understand every word of that last sentence. Whether she is able to heal from these wounds is beyond your control. You control neither her fate, nor the fate of your relationship—no matter how sincere and complete your recovery. But, you can facilitate this healing considerably. She needs your courage to share what will be painful for you both. She needs you to be willing to put her health above the relationship; above even, yourself. Now, this doesn’t mean that your partner can’t move beyond your addiction and live a healthy, fulfilling life on her own—she can, even in spite of you selfishly choosing to hold on to secrets and lies. But it does mean that without your help, she will not be able to fully heal from the damage that you have caused. It will be a part of her always. And thus, a part of every relationship she is involved in from here on out. Returning to the example above, imagine how shattered the pieces of your life would be in the wake of such a devastating blow to your identity. Imagine your business partner holding tight to his lies…offering insight only when proof was available. Imagine the questions you would have—questions of which the answers could potentially provide you with insight and closure—remaining selfishly unanswered so that your partner can protect himself from experiencing further pain. This, even though they openly shared, “I will do anything to make this up to you.” How could you trust this person to not repeat what they have done, when they still won’t accept full responsibility for it? The answer is: you couldn’t. Not unless you were a fool. When you hold back the truth from your partner, when you are unwilling to engage in open dialogue about your past, it is typically for one of three reasons:
1) You are too ashamed and/or embarrassed to reveal certain things about your past—things that you believe would be unforgivable. Things that you believe would serve as ‘the straw that broke the camel’s back’. And so, you choose to protect these secrets knowing that you have nothing to lose. If they are ever discovered, the relationship ends anyway (or so you think)…and so, there is nothing to be gained (again, so you think) by sharing and everything to be lost.
2) You are not yet in a healthy way with your addiction and so, you are still connected to those past behaviors in an emotionally unhealthy way. A healthy person has isolated that addiction from the core of who they are—and thus, can distance themselves from the intense shame that accompanies the behavior. Your inability to do this means that these behaviors are still ingrained within you
3) You are not sincerely committed to developing a healthy life. You are consciously choosing to continue lying and/or holding on to secrets because you do not want to accept responsibility for those actions that they are attached to. In your mind, you just want to get past this crisis and move on—no sense in creating more crisis when it is entirely possible that those lies/secrets will never be known.
Within each reason, the fundamental aspect to note is the selfishness on your part to withhold information that your partner needs to heal. It is your decision to decide for your partner what is best for her…what she can or cannot handle. But what you fail to take into consideration is that your answers—exploring the depth of your addiction, the extreme of your compulsions, the irrationality of your actions—these are the very answers she needs to put the pieces of her own life back together. “But with the damage that has already been done, won’t it always be a part of her life? A part of our relationship?” Yes, it will. But—and I don’t expect you to fully grasp this concept until after you have experienced it for yourself with addiction—there are two ways that this trauma can affect your partner in the long run. It can have a destructive effect—forever weakening her values, her identity, her confidence, her willingness to risk, to love, to grow, to trust, etc. Or it can have a constructive effect, providing her with the confidence that comes from not just surviving a traumatic life event, but actually growing because of it. If your relationship is to survive this addiction, your partner will need to experience the latter. If your partner is to fully heal, she will come to see this time in her life as one where she was challenged to rebuild a foundation that was originally built (at least partly) on illusion, into a foundation built of brick and mortar. It is your job to help provide that brick and mortar—not more illusion. Your role in helping your partner heal is simple. Painful, but simple. Accept the life that you have led to this point, courageously and painfully share that life with your partner, accept whatever consequences result from what you have shared…and then move forward. Move forward with no more lies…no more secrets…no more incongruence. Learn to feel the confidence that comes from sharing your true self the world around you. Where the Pain Comes From On RecoveryNation.com, courageous partners volunteered their own answers to this question. Take some time now to read what they have shared by clicking here: The Pain We Feel
Why Can’t My Partner See This as Any Other Addiction? To most partners, the sex, love and porn addictions ARE NOT perceived like other addictions. Not that this distinction falls solely on partners. Imagine having discovered that your business partner, along with all that he did to destroy your business, had been having a year long affair with your wife AND your daughter. He wasn’t in love with either of them, nor was it casual sex. Instead, the relationships were part of a larger compulsive love addiction that he had. Would you be able to see that behavior in the same way as his gambling addiction? Doubtful. In a healthy recovery, it is the foundation of a person that needs to be the primary focus of change, not the symptoms. Certainly, the symptoms of that addiction (masturbation, gambling, online affairs, porn, alcohol, etc.) are important, but only in the fact that they provide concrete opportunities for development, measurement, monitoring, understanding, etc., of what is happening at the core of that person’s life. Anyone who has transitioned to a healthy life knows that as you learn to manage the foundation of your life, the addiction (and the symptoms used to measure that addiction) takes care of itself. This is one of the reasons why those in a healthy recovery have the potential to transition so much faster to health and stability than do their partners. Your ability to emotionally detach yourself from the symptoms of your addiction (by focusing on developing a healthy core) is by design…and it is a very effective (and necessary) step in making a healthy transition from both addiction and recovery. To your partner though, there is no such emotional detachment. Your partner cannot see the world as you see it; cannot process your thoughts as you process them. To you, you are what you think…and as your thoughts change, you change. To your partner though, you are what she has observed—and only what she has observed. You are the accumulation of a lifetime of thoughts, emotions, behaviors, etc., that she has either witnessed first hand or, that you have chosen to tell her about. For most relationships, this is enough. For most relationships, the minor deceptions and disappointments that accompany all partnerships do not fundamentally change the way that a partner is perceived. But this is not so with the sex and love addictions. It is the rare partner who can separate the addiction from the individual, much less the symptoms of that addiction from the addiction itself. Almost universally, there is a world of difference between how they perceive sexual addiction versus alcoholism, or compulsive porn use versus compulsive over-eating. This, even though the foundation for why you engaged in these behaviors are fundamentally the same. To your partner, your reporting that you have had nineteen affairs over the past year is not the same as your reporting that you have secretly lost over $20K on online gambling. Both are traumatic events to be sure, but the feelings surrounding the sexually-compulsive behavior are almost always more devastating. Your partner’s ability to rationally understand an addiction to alcohol, to gambling, to work, to (enter any behavior outside of sex and/or love addiction) is much greater than their ability to understand THE VERY SAME PATTERN…but with the symptoms of sex/love driving that pattern. Why is this? It is important that you know. Sex and romantic love are two aspects of your partnership that ideally, you need each other to fulfill. The elements of just about any other addiction can be detached from the partnership and the foundation of that relationship will remain intact. Not that the relationship won’t suffer significant trauma as a result of the lies, the lost respect, the perceived moral and personal weaknesses involved with drug addiction, alcoholism, etc.—it will. But it does not instantly crumble. Typically, it only crumbles under the realization that the person in recovery is unable to rebuild their life—a realization that is made only after many relapse/recovery cycles. This is not the case with the sex and love addictions. And it is only sometimes the case with porn addiction (depending on the type of porn, the extent of use, etc.). Quite often, upon the discovery of such behavior, the partner’s foundation collapses. One of the pillars of her foundation (the love and commitment of her partner) has been shattered and that one pillar was providing strength and stability to so many others. And so as that pillar crumbled, everything connected to that pillar was wiped out as well. Well, not necessarily wiped out, but certainly damaged. Damage occurred to every value that she had tied to sharing her life with you: feeling loved, feeling desired, feeling wanted, feeling appreciated, feeling a part of a team, feeling respected, feeling supported, having the ability to share her love, having the ability to risk, to be vulnerable, to trust, to depend, to experience romance with, to experience sexual intimacy with, to…well, you get the idea. Not that all of this damage took place at the time of the discovery. Much of it was sustained long before that—as a consequence of living with a secret addiction. It is just that the discovery brought a devastating clarity to it all. And so, while most other addictions can survive the initial traumatic discovery, this is not always the case with the sex and love addictions. You can do all that is humanly possible to change—and indeed do successfully transition to a healthy life; your partner can do all that she can to heal—and indeed find herself feeling good about the direction of her life once more…and it may still not be enough. And that is one of the things that you must understand. You do not have the ability to save your marriage. You have only the ability to save your life. Not that you can’t do your part to give your marriage the best chance of success. You can, and that starts with ending your addiction; and ends with learning to fully relate to your partner. I italicized the part about growing from this because I believe for us to make it through to the other side would make me a stronger person in the end for having to face the conflict to resolution and I would also gain so much respect for you for putting forth the effort to be that better person that in the end I would love you even more than if we never had had conflict. It is easy to love someone when everything is perfect. Last but not least, if in a year from now our sex life has not increased in quantity or quality, this is not an issue with me if you are not wasting your boners in selfish persuits.....if we are both living our lives without sex I have no issue with that.... The origin of my hostility in there was all coming from the fact that I saw you getting your sexual needs (as I perceived it) being met, and I was having to excise that from my personality and existence.
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Post by Curious Voyager on Dec 12, 2007 12:36:02 GMT -5
Hmmm Hugs, a lot there and it helps me see maybe where the dude is coming from and you as well.
I'll just add this. My wife never snooped on me and if she had I would have-naturally-had a negative reaction. I do, at this point in recovery understand much more fully the partner's need, for it is indeed a need to rebuild trust. Lets face it addicts are the most practiced lairs ever known--we can even convince our Self that black is white and white is black.
I have never had to deal with my partner snooping. Again though from where I am now I can understand it and see it as a valid need.
At this stage of my recovery I have adopted and practice the "open book" method. My wife knows that she can ask me any question, can read my email accounts, install any software she want on the computer. I leave all my search logs intact. In essence there is nothing I have or do that she, as my beloved partner, that she does not have a "right" to. I'll tell you I did not come to that easily. The remnants of addictive thinking are stained by guilt and there is a real fear.
But I am doing that-open book-not for her but for me. It is her right as my partner to own all of me. But I am an open book to her because that is a step that is required for me to heal completely. It almost feels like an insurance policy and gives me an odd comfort.
Our computer is in a open place at home and she is able and welcome to walk over anytime and she does periodically ask me what I'm doing or who I am talking with. I invite her to come over and read and if I am messaging, she can ask the other party a question (as long as they are comfortable) otherwise she can read the whole log.
This open book policy is scary but I find it makes me safer.
I can only affect directly the recovery of one person. That is me. I am responsible for my recovery. Does she trust me fully--the last time I asked that question she said "Mostly" I was not expecting that and asked her why mostly--her reply--"Your history." no meanness, just factual and I got it! Trust is like Humpty Dumpty and it takes a whole lotta work to put it back together.
WHAT have I to hide? Nothing. What has she to snoop for? Nothing. Can she snoop if she wants to? She doesn't need to but she does have that right. I gave it to her through default when I was a lying porn addict SOB.
What scares me the most is not her finding something out--its me losing recovery and having something to hide. I am an Open Book, with her, with others I am open as well but I do have appropriate boundaries.
We would all benefit from worrying more about the direction we are headed that the speed we are traveling.
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Post by hugs4u002 on Dec 12, 2007 12:43:26 GMT -5
O.K. this is why I think there is no hope! I wrote a second email to follow up........am I approaching this the wrong way? I am really feeling like just giving up! ME: p.s. another thing I have learned is that since this is an escape mechanism for you that by causing emotional turmoil for you I am being detrimental to your recovery from it. Where before I saw it as your being spiteful. That you were making a choice for the internet over me. As I said there is a lot to understanding this from the outside looking in, I could only interpret things from my own understanding and relationship with sex, I hope that you see that I am not trying to interfere or run your life by reading up on this, but only gaining a more realistic understanding of what's really going on. I understand what you where saying last night about it not having an affect before on how you felt towards me, it was a moment of clarity for me. I hope you too can begin to understand my reactions to this, I think it would help for you to put into perspective why I "overreact" and we can meet on common ground where we can work towards a future together with both of us healthy and happy. book. HIS RESPONSE : I read your email and the copy and paste portions from whatever informatioin base you accessed them from. Things are happening here so I had better try and be brief for a change in my email to you. Thank you for taking the time to write that. I read the inserts from postings. I agree probably with everything said. When I finished I felt as if 95% or more of the content was again directed at me and my problem. I have felt for a very long time and said as much that the entirety of your focus in my opinion was too much upon me and my faults and weaknesses and this allowed the distraction of not truely recogonizing your own and focusing on them. My email last night was an attempt to show you. I am not pointing fingers nor judging, and I dont believe you are from what i read either. I will say them again, so that perhaps you hear me, understand me, agree or disagree, and in the end decide what if anything you intend to do in addressing the weaknesses in you, and that faults that are important to me. Outside of a sentence or two occasionally, I do not feel you have recognized them fully, nor as yet, taken those steps to eliminate them from your life, and hence mine. Sorry if this is negative, it just seems they got glazed over. I read your recognotion and admission for the invasions of my privacy. What steps will you take so that too doesnt happen in the future? When you feel hurt, the essence of you as I know you, somehow gets cast aside, and a buried portion of you comes out and it is very ugly. My belief is aruging can even in complete anger, rage is another thing which is never good, those things said should be limited to the problem at hand. Too many times you have failed this and reduced yourself and me to name calling. It has gone beyond name calling as well to the depths of direct hurtful insults. I want no part of that. It is my belief like most things where a chink in the armor exists or crack in the damn, one done, easier and easier to do the next times. Maybe you have fought with others like this in the past. I have not. I recall a single time reducing myself to this level, and I recall doing it solely to have you know what it feels like. I wont be doing it again. Your last result to the solution of our problem, as you have said in the past is to take flight verus fight. Ok. Again, i accept it if this is the way you are, but I do not want a woman in my life that chooses that path too easily as I feel you have been doing. Again, you recogonized it, and are trying to understand it, agreed with it and now is simply the questions of what you want to do... not for me, but for you, about it? I am starting to notice you have a very subtle form of control issue. You have attempted to control my behaviors by exposing them and whether positively or negatively had me change them to what you want me to be. I totally understand and share the same vision and hope. Its time for you to shift your focus and energies away from my weaknesses and faults, and channel them on your own. I dont know if you see that, but I do. Sorry I failed to make this brief. I did not wish to let this opportunity slip by and pretend that if I do my part, we will be fine. We wont be, because as you can see, I too have problems...and those problems are with your weaknesses. So we can talk about these things, my wish is that it is far more infrequent so we are not introducing negative reinforcement with each other daily, weekly or however frequently we have been. I know this is not what you want to hear... but I dont want to get back together if the things i mentioned above to you are not serious enough flaws to you, that you dont attack them much the same way as i dont want to get back together with you if I am not wanting to or willing to change the ones in me. But I do want to get back together, and I want to do it right. Please dont respond to this. Not that I want to have the last word, but everything has been said now. We each know what we have to do. If you like, you can just respond back with whether you agree or disagree. Thats all i need to know. So i end on a positive note...I have never loved a woman in the way I love you. The purity and goodness of that love was exactly what I would have hoped it to be. It is because of that love and that I recogonize how special it is to me, that I am here now.
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Post by hugs4u002 on Dec 12, 2007 12:54:56 GMT -5
Thank you CV, I have unfortunately found something EVERY SINGLE TIME that I looked...I also tricked him into a conversation on yahoo messenger and in thinking that he was talking to a young hot chick he got immediately carried away and went so far as to ask for her phone number and gave out his address, this was after spending the night with me....so trust is a huge issue for me. I have made progress with this as I gained an understanding of what was truly going on, but it has all been tiny bits of truth over the last year, and I have tried to be patient as he is showing signs and saying things that indicate he is getting it. I feel it may be too late and too little for me at this point. I don't know, I am in a bad place today. He is not in active recovery.
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Post by Curious Voyager on Dec 12, 2007 13:03:30 GMT -5
Seeing both sides does help some.
My thoughts and reactions to his response.
He's being a jackass and childish. Addicts in relationships have NO rights to privacy. through our disloyal acting out we forfeit those rights if they ever existed.
He is in conflict. I love you but not the you you are but the you I want you to be. It does look like deflection and blame-shifting in this msg.
he is definitely taking your inventory which indicates he may need more recovery education. although he is also right that you do need to focus your energy more on your part in the addiction dynamic and work your own recovery. And that is going to be true whether you stay with him or kick him to the curb. You have been damaged by his addiction and by your interaction with his addiction. You need recovery too.
From my own experience and what I have seen shared over the years, his recovery is shakey at best.
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Post by Curious Voyager on Dec 12, 2007 13:09:55 GMT -5
He is not in active recovery. based on what you said--I'd have to agree. It looks like you need to consider your own health and well-being because one thing I have learned is that you CANNOT force, threaten, or bribe someone into recovery. Will he make the turn? Is he in counseling or going to group meetings? Has he accepted, not just said, but accepted that he is addicted? He does not seem to be in a healthy spot and you can stay and fight but unless HE decides to recovery for his own good, then he will drag you down and continue to hurt you. My partner is just that, my partner, we own each other. I have to repay the interest on the lies and violations that I committed. One of the costs is any right to privacy. I am willingly paying that now. You have decisions to make and they will probably hurt whichever path you choose.
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Post by Mayberry on Dec 12, 2007 13:18:51 GMT -5
I'm sorry, hugs, but I stand by what I said in the first round. This is ugly stuff, and it's not YOUR ugly stuff.
Pardon me, but it's not a "little girl dream" to expect a fellow to declare his intentions toward you through an offer of marriage. (Not that, as a friend, I'd advise you to want marriage with this fellow...but, as the saying goes, it's always nice to be asked.) Pardon me, but it's not a "little girl dream" to have a boyfriend who isn't cheating on you, or looking to hook up with someone through chat.
CV's point about your need for healing is a valid one. That said, and in my opinion only, please don't let that very real need in you serve as an excuse for either you or your partner as to why he isn't dealing with his addiction and with his commitment to your-all's relationship.
The tones of blaming and ugliness that I sensed in the first email you shared seem to solidify into cascading boulders of lashing out in the second email. That's my read, and I'm sticking to it. I absolutely refuse to believe that you are responsible for his ugliness, his addiction. I think he's pointing at you, shouting "Look at YOU! Look how ugly you're being!!!!" and trying to pretend that it wasn't his addiction and his bad behavior that sparked the "unpleasantness" he's now seeing in you. Are your actions just & upright? I don't know, and again, this is something you will probably have to wrestle with, with or without him.
But let's please not forget that your behaviors and reactions, right or wrong, did not happen in a void. Most folk, in my experience, do not react with wisdom, patience and grace when faced with personal hurt as a result of someone else's addiction. It's a bit like being stolen from by a drug-addicted friend--you can't get your stuff back, and it was YOU who sustained the loss, even though the compassionate self might understand that your friend has a problem. Whether you were peaceful about that stealing, or angry...what does it matter? Really. Do you have the right to be suspicious when the addict is in your house again after the theft? ABSOLUTELY! If you can't live your life without paranoia about future thefts, should you let the addict into your house without supervision? NO, one might choose to stay away from the addict, period. Does the addict have a right to tell you how you've got a problem with anger when you discover you've been robbed, yet again? Don't make me laugh! (Now, you might have a problem with anger, and with control, but, IMO, that would mean you should probably get away from the person whose actions prompt paranoia and anger in you.)
What is being stolen, again and again, by YOUR addict? Trust, sexual fidelity, physical and emotional safety.
If it was my wallet being stolen, I suspect I would've reacted a lot more quickly than I did when it was my trust, my safety and my sense of self-worth. GO FIGURE.
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Post by gracebyfaith on Dec 12, 2007 13:23:43 GMT -5
Honey, let him stay gone. He's really reading like a d-head. What unmitigated, unbelievable gall. Silly wanker. I agree with him that you should shift your focus and energies away from him, but not to work on your "own faults" (freakin' gag), but in order to heal without this toxicity in your life. Who needs this brand of "love"? (((hugs)))
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