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Post by gracebyfaith on Nov 14, 2007 8:06:16 GMT -5
LU I wish I had something helpful to say. Is it possible that you fear Mr. LU will backslide again with communication, if you are less than 100% supportive of the efforts he has made? I don't know...do you react when he does the inside touching? I admire your restraint, wow, I admire everyone's restraint today (Mayberry's too). I have very little, and would probably throw H's hand off me in anger. OK, that's not helpful.
Are you thinking of reminding him of the promise he made to talk? Or are you holding out for voluntary talking? Ack, I'm sorry.
I hope the struggles pass soon - our lives are so cyclical with valleys and mountaintops, no? Doesn't make the valleys any easier, I know...I'm praying for you, LU.
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AmazingGrace
Full Member
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like ME.
Posts: 130
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Post by AmazingGrace on Nov 14, 2007 16:59:26 GMT -5
Is Mr. LU trying to "say" something by his touches? You'll excuse my lack of knowledge of your experience, but I think (correct me if I'm wrong), Mr. LU and you have been pretty-much abstinent because of his ED.
It seems that Mr. LU is a man of few words, so I wonder what his actions are trying to say. Is it possible that the emotional sharing and openness (however limited in your view) in your marriage is contributing to a sense of intimacy for him, and his "desire" for you is a natural result of that?
Is he wanting to rekindle a physical relationship? Would he be comfortable expressing that need/desire to you if he were? Is a more physically intimate relationship something you would be interested in exploring, or do you want emotional intimacy before you can invest yourself in physical intimacy?
What other social opportunities are there in your community outside your church? You are a quilter--are there any other quilters or clubs you might consider joining? I know how important for me friendships are. I never had good girlfriends before joining this mom's Bible study I've been a part of for the last two+ years.
I just prayed for your "state of the marriage" and for you friendships.
Wishing you well,
Becky
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 15, 2007 7:32:20 GMT -5
LookingUp: I was really struck by AmazingGrace's question about quilters' groups....does this appeal to you at all? You might want to start one even? Just a thought. J
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 15, 2007 7:56:18 GMT -5
Is it possible that you fear Mr. LU will backslide again with communication, if you are less than 100% supportive of the efforts he has made? Yes, I have seen that happen many times in our relationship. He steps out of his comfort zone just until I re-attach. I hate being detached for my safety - so I pop out of my safety shell and then he reverts to almost as poor of communication as before. It's 2 steps forward and sometimes 2 back and sometimes 1 - so I think we're progressing - but so slow. We've been married over 9 years and still dealing with this stuff. It seems like if he was really committed to the marriage that he'd have put more effort into learning how to communicate. I found reacting just made him do it more. Just acting like a statue and neither encouraging or discouraging it usually is the best response. If you don't know my story - it took several years to figure out how to stop him from pressing on my lower abdomen when I'd wake up in the morning. I'd ask nice not to do that because I had a full bladder. I'd yell. I'd get mad and stomp out of the bed. I finally laid there one morning and said if I peed the bed that HE would have to wash the bedding and figure out how to clean the mattress because *I* was smart enough to not push on people's full bladders. Amazing - he has been very careful since I made that boundary. But it took me probably 6 years before he HEARD me. (I feel invisible.) But it's trial and error because he seems incapable of hearing words and accepting them.... maybe because he's lied to me so much he just figures I lie to him? But why would I lie about my bladder being full in the morning - his is, too! Duh! I figured out it's not the touching that's bothering me so much. It's the amount of pressure he uses. I have very sensitive skin. I'm very ticklish, I feel pain with just minor pressure, I bruise very easily. Not sure if that's because of the blood disease or what. His late wife liked lots of pressure when he touched her and they were lovers from age 14 to 47 - so that was fairly ingrained to use a rough touch. It took a couple years for him to accept he couldn't ham-hand me when he touched me or it would cause pain and I'd bruise. With the couple years of not touching much, he's back to ham-handed. He causes me pain instead of pleasure. Now that I realize why his touch was making me feel angry and used, I can discuss it with him and hope he hears without 2 years or reminders this time. I've tried that before in the past. It's like saying siccum to a dog - he's back for more and more and more. Him trying the same behavior and hoping for another response..... isn't that the AA slogan for insanity? At times my husband reminds me of a playful 13 year old with lots of enthusiasm and not much restraint. He's cute - but it grows old fast because I'd like a mature man with mature man responses to non-verbal cues plus the ability to hear, discuss, and find co-resolutions so we can both be as comfortable as possible in this marriage. I don't want to take his playfulness away - but I want to find compromises so both of us can enjoy the playfulness. Aurgh. I was going to say something by late afternoon Wednesday - and try not to blast him for not having done it yesterday. About mid afternoon he showed me a sheet of paper and has been writing stuff down on. Me and a friend are going out to lunch and to visit a lady in the hospital at a town 60 miles away. (This lady is in her early 40s, recently separated and has inoperable lung cancer - the chemo was making it grow faster and so they'll give her a bit of radiation and send her home to die; being alone, she has to live with her parents --- she's trusting God to heal her.) While I'm gone, Mr. LU will organize his thoughts and we'll have the talk later today or tomorrow - depending on what time I get home. Thanks. I know they're helping. Is Mr. LU trying to "say" something by his touches? You'll excuse my lack of knowledge of your experience, but I think (correct me if I'm wrong), Mr. LU and you have been pretty-much abstinent because of his ED. You are correct. Last time we made love was in January - it was good! He avoids sex to the point that he usually sleeps in the guest room. It was one or two times a year for the past several years. Actually, Mr. LU is quite a chatterer. He reads me e-mails; he reads me what people on his blog say; he reads me news and sports announcements; but there's seldom anything about HIM. He's an unknown. He tells me some things his daughter or mother say when he talks to them on the phone. He gets quite hurt if I don't listen closely and respond with questions. I realize this is how he is trying to connect and I appreciate it; I do get frustrated because I married HIM and would like to know him. I try to steer questions about "How do you feel about..... <what he said>" and he either looks at me like I had 3 heads, gives me a history lesson or reads me something else. I love him - but I feel I'm married to a radio and not a human. Maybe that is part of the procedure of coming out of an addiction as he learns to feel safe with stating his life to me. I felt he was wanting "rewarded" for giving me one piece of new information. Intimate touching and sex are in different compartments for him (my interpretation). [trigger]Based on the several years we did have sex - touching (even to the point I was about ready to orgasm) did not lead to making love; he'd be upset with me for getting excited because we were just touching. Sex, on the other hand, only happened if he'd scheduled it. If we'd be touching intimately and I'd try to get him to the bedroom - he'd "schedule" sex for another time a week or so later and if I'd forget or realize I was 20 minutes late, then he'd say I missed my chance. The difficult part was it took lovemaking out of the love-making category and felt more like "getting laid" because there wasn't the closeness the snugliness, the warming up to each other. It was taking our clothes off and making love. He did learn that foreplay was part of it which for a long time he felt foreplay equaled begging and resented that I needed him to "beg" so I could be physically ready to receive him (or grab the lubricant if we didn't want to do a lot of foreplay). We read a couple books and he realized women are wired different so then he was okay with foreplay and seemed to be enjoying it -- until he decided no more sex. We have had one or two discussions on me being unrealistic on wanting him to go to counseling to discover why the ED. He said we could do other things and not have to worry about ED. I wouldn't be against that IF he was making movement towards trying to figure out why he's having this problem. I don't want to sweep it under the carpet and I feel that's what he's doing. Rather graphic so I've put it in a trigger, too: [trigger]I have a lot of trouble with mb each other because it seems so pornified - he usually touches himself or sometimes lets me participate a little but I feel superfluous. I have trouble with oral because we can't see each others' faces so I don't feel like he even is aware it's me. Same with doggie style. I have to have the lights on or do it in daytime so he knows it's me; plus, since I've had trouble with fantasizing (my way of coping with his non-connectedness) I need the light so I don't go off into la-la land either. I realize some of the issues of making love are definitely the amount my comfort zone for sex has shrunk because of his PA. I realize it's not ALL his ED or refusal to be intimate. We just aren't smart enough to find a compromise. [/trigger] He did get viagara and it didn't work half the time and gave him a horrid headache and scared me because his blood vessels would pop out so far on his face I worried about a stroke. But he won't ask for Cialis because it would be "paying for sex." Thus, my issue is that he can't explain those things to me so they make logical sense - so I can be comfortable finding compromises. Until he learns to look inside himself, find what's there and vocalize that - he probably won't make a lot of sense to me. [/trigger] I've read that women want emotional intimacy so they can more fully experience physical intimacy; I've read men want physical intimacy so they feel more emotionally connected and can open their heart. I'm certainly willing to work towards that. My MIL told my husband to tell me there is a woman's quilting group in town. There's a couple quilt guilds - but they are about an hour drive away and living this far north that's not practical during winter. Here's some photos of the road after a storm between here and that town keithf.homedns.org/snow.html Of course, it doesn't often get that bad, but the weatherman isn't infallible. Thanks, Becky. I know prayer is the best thing to change anything - especially this marraige.
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AmazingGrace
Full Member
Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound, that saved a wretch like ME.
Posts: 130
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Post by AmazingGrace on Nov 15, 2007 18:59:14 GMT -5
Ah, so I was a little off base there--he's a man of few (of his own) words. Wow. How is it that sex is so complicated? I can see that with 33 years of intimacy with his first wife, certain things would get engrained. But the touching apart from sex thing, the scheduling sex and whoops! you missed your opportunity thing?? I sigh in amazement! You DO have some serious odd-ness to deal with!! So his touches are not a promise of something more intimate to come. He's squeaking out just a few things about himself, and he's taking liberties with your body that are uncomfortable and not affectionate or intimate. I hope you're able to express your feelings/needs firmly and clearly and that he hears you. [trigger] My husband used to feel that I had too many "rules" for sex. Well, in some ways he was right. When you only get sex once or twice a month (or year!) it needs to meet certain expectations. It used to always be "ladies first." Now that we're intimate on a more frequent basis, my agenda has relaxed somewhat. I'm willing to have sex from behind once in a while or be more "active" in bed without feeling like our sex is pornified. Kissing has made a comeback. We always brush our teeth before sex now, and it seems to be more intimate because of it. But I did have to spell the "new rules" out for him. "If we have sex more frequently, my climax becomes less important to me. If I feel safe with you, I can freely involve myself in sex. If we have intimate, face-to-face sex more frequently, I'm willing to vary positions occasionally." Oh, so many "ifs." [/trigger]
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 15, 2007 20:10:10 GMT -5
I've been thinking about my concern about possible bi-polar. I've come up with this conclusion: My bi-polar feelings come from a break in the rhythm of what is natural - wanting to connect with my spouse; to being required to do what is not natural - detaching. I detach and then I try to re-attach and realize that is not safe yet - so I detach.... The high comes when I start to feel safe enough to attach - it feels really good emotionally that maybe my need for being connected with my partner is going to happen; the low comes when I realize my reattachment was premature and I've made myself vulnerable and unsafe. Being unsafe in a relationship where I should feel safe is a downer! That explains the cycle - but just because something is cyclic, it doesn't mean it's bi-polar. Whew, glad to have that settled in my head! Ah, so I was a little off base there--he's a man of few (of his own) words. LOL. Love the way you worded that! I presume satan took something that should be normal, loving and connecting between man and wife and perverted it so it becomes a landmine. I'm glad he gets his just reward in the end! Good summary. Now that you've helped me think it through - I will probably be able to express my feelings. [trigger] I can see how that would happen. It's hard to grow in sexual trust if it's only an annual occurrance. Practice makes perfect - It's hard to relax to enjoy it with 11-3/4 months of no practice! For me, there's a lot of fear when we do it because of lack of use and the chance of tearing and bleeding - which is a big no-no since I have a blood borne pathogen. I want to make love with him - not kill him! We've often smooched until our mouths are puffy. I enjoy that. Seems that gets less frequent and less duration. Don't think he's even given a compliment since I (1) lost 14 pounds and (2) cut my hair. I can see how more frequency would help rebuild the trust and help you feel safe enough to re-incorporate (or incorporate) different expressions of lovemaking. [/trigger] Thanks for your understanding and helping me sort through this "minefield" topic. LookingUp
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Post by Sunshine on Nov 17, 2007 15:37:13 GMT -5
LU-
My heart is with you on this issue, but I am not much help here. We have pretty much always had a good physical relationship, and more so since I let it be known that I am going to participate, not be used. I wonder if this is a difference between s/a and p/a, that the s/a likes the real thing, not just porn, so maybe they have an easier time reconnecting in the physical way. Anyway- I am thinking of you-
Sunshine
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 25, 2007 11:06:28 GMT -5
I wonder if this is a difference between s/a and p/a, that the s/a likes the real thing, not just porn, so maybe they have an easier time reconnecting in the physical way. I don't know. ex1 was a sa who did a little porn on the side and of the five years we were married, we maybe had sex a dozen times - if I could co-erce him into it (get him drunk enough he could still do it but not realize it was me - that's embarrassing to say). Ex2 was a PA who did a little cheating on the side during our 20 years of marriage and he would have had sex a dozen or more times a week if we could have found the time and me the inclination... kept it to about 4 times a week and sometimes an extra couple times on Sunday.
We'd been making some real efforts to connect. Now he's setting at his computer ignoring me and I'm setting at mine ignoring him. Guess one of us has to act like a grown up and start a conversation. Thought I'd post a few things here to organize my thoughts before *I* open the conversation.... unless he beats me to it (which I doubt he'll do). I had been hanging some confidence on the few things he said he'd do. Seeing if he'd put action to where his mouth was. (1) He said he'd get back to me within a week with my other questions. Last time he said a week, it was 8 days - but he explained why the wait. I told him since he said why that I was comfortable with waiting. This time, nothing was said. I feel angry, betrayed and minimized by this treatment. (2) He said he'd go with me to find a church. He unilaterally chose not to. I prayed about it last night and decided it's not so much that he made that choice - but the way he handed that decision down like a dictate from the King. He could have approached it in a different way that would have validated my heart rather then minimized my hopes. (3) He has been assuring we watch a Gary Smalley video daily - to get through them all and then go back and do them again and use the workbook together. (4) We had a very poor attempt at communication yesterday that left us both feeling upset and unloved. I posted that in the circle. Do I want to (a) press on and try to heal the marriage and go through all this periodic pain as we grate against each other as we grow; or (b) stick with the periodic pain of roommate status. I want growing up in communication to be easy - but I feel my inner addict and his stubbornness is giving us one heck of a bucking bronco ride emotionally. I used stubbornness instead of his inner addict since he swears he wasn't addicted to porn just chose to be an insensitive jerk who wanted to hurt his wife by his perverted, betraying behavior; after he'd seen his wife cry dozens of times from the pain of his visual adultery -- at least that's my take on why a non-addicted man would continue doing it... maybe that's catty and unloving but I'd rather say that here then to scream it at his face which is what I want to do. I want to hurt back but I will take the high road because whether we choose roommate or growing in verbal intimacy - I do want to give this marriage a chance to heal. LookingUp
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 25, 2007 12:31:09 GMT -5
We talked. It went much better then yesterday. We agreed it's difficult and painful to learn to communicate but decided to plug away at it - because feeling lonely in a roommate marriage has it's own pain. At least this way, we have the hope the pain will lead us into something with a better chance of serenity and happiness.
LookingUp
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Post by whoami on Nov 25, 2007 19:55:47 GMT -5
LU, I'm glad you talked today, and that it went better. I would hate having something said to me in the manner of the "King" handing down his pronouncement, too. I wonder what brought that on, exactly?! Did that happen before your foiled attempts at communication, that left you both feeling upset? Or did he hand down his dictate after the talking attempt went awry?
I don't mean this to be funny at all, but there was a full moon over this holiday weekend...and the first thing I thought of when reading your H decided not to go to church, was that dang fool moon. I know that in emergency rooms and mental wards it can tend to have an effect. I guess it's as good an explanation as we can get from our PAs/SAs, when they switch gears on us like that! So often, there's just no figuring it....and THEY don't even know!
So did you go to a new church today anyway, by yourself or with a friend? It had to be VERY disappointing, he wasn't there to go with you,{{{{LookingUp}}}}, and I hope and pray next week will be different. It sounds real good tho, that you talked today and agreed how hard this is. Plugging away at learning to communicate is the WAY TO GO! especially when there's 2 of you doing it. I'm glad to hear today went better!
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 25, 2007 22:42:38 GMT -5
LU, I'm glad you talked today, and that it went better. Me, too. I still feel pulled away from him - not quite ready to want to be so close to him. Not feeling safe yet. Not sure why - because he also said he felt unsafe and coerced. I have no idea what goes on in his brain - but one scenario I've made up for his behavior yesterday is that he realized going with me was important to me; that him changing his mind on something important to me would cause some "truths" from me that he didn't want to hear; that his saying he'd go and then not following through would break down my trust even further - but he still wanted his way and didn't want me to bring up those other reasons.... I think he wanted me to be a good "object" and just smile and fluff it off that he'd lost major trust points. A few years ago, I would have just been hostil and got quiet for days - tried to punish him; but now I confront and try to get things out in the open. We're both a bit uncomfortable with that. Thus, him recognizing I'm growing leaves him unknowing how I will react when he does something he knows will hurt me. Will I revert to old behavior and give him the cold shoulder a few days or will I confront. I use to would have backed down as soon as the conversation became confusing. Now I can say, "I"m confused - I hate how we're communicating. Can we talk about that and try to get the communication going and then go back to our topic?" As we're learning - we're both unstable and a bit fearful. There's the old garbage of yelling matches, the new yearing to communicate right - but the old and new fears.... and while all that's going on, we're also having to be aware of how we communicate so we're not causing undue pain or turmoil. Lots of energy. Today we were better able to listen and speak. I also realized that I wasn't as mad about himm changing his mind as how he communicated that to me. I told him I wished he had approached it this way: "I realize I said I'd go with you to church and I know that was important to you. I feel I committed to do more then I'm currently able to do and I'd like to cut back that commitment to every other Sunday (or whatever he wanted). I'm sorry I'm not at the place where I can do what I thought would make you happy. How would me going every other week work for you? Would that cause damage to the trust you've been growing in my integrity?" I would have felt included in the solution instead of rejected by his royal pronouncement. I'm thankful I was able to say what I'd like to hear - in case something like this comes up again. It seems it was in the middle of the conversation when things were not meshing and I was feeling frustrated, unheard, belittled and starting to feel angry. He feels I was pushing him to pick my church - but if I was, I certainly wasn't aware of it. I felt I was asking questions that a "yes" or "no" answer would have been adequate - and some elaboration on why choosing a yes or no would have been appropriate and meaningful to me. But his answers were way off base to my question, in my opinion. I gave him this story to try to explain what I was feeling. Let's say he decided to take me on vacation to Kansas. He was trying to get me to pay attention as he asked questions to see what we'd do while we were there and for the trip. He'd ask if I'd prefer a cabin in the wilds or a hotel in a city and I'd answer.... "Albert and Anne went to the Bahamas on vacation. They camped in a tent on the beach; they loved the weather." Then he'd say "cabin or hotel?" and I'd say "Bob and Betty went to California on their vacation. THey stayed at a chalet and went to Disney World" Then he'd say "What do these people's vacations have to do with OUR vacation." and I'd reply "Well, we're talking about vacations, dear." No matter what specific question I asked, his reply was very general and in the major category of my topic - but not answering my specific question. Maybe it's a type of gaslighting - but it makes you think you're mumbling in Spanish to a person who only speaks French. I remember when ex1 was institutionalized, he said the doctors always had extra PRN meds to help keep the VA mental wards more calm during moons. I guess the full moon is as good excuse as any for our poor communication. I went with my friend, I'll send you the "critique" (hate that word) and I think I'll try it next Sunday morning with Mr. LU by my side. It seems promising - with a few drawbacks. Thanks for your friendship and your understanding - and your comments and moon humor, too. LookingUp
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 25, 2007 22:44:11 GMT -5
Weird update:
Mr. LU asked me the working title of the book I'm writing (and several ladies are helping me edit). He's telling people on his weather blog about it. I asked if he told them what it was about - and he said he did.
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Post by hopeflows on Nov 26, 2007 12:18:47 GMT -5
Hey LU Your patience with his communication continues to amaze me, LU. So, the King spoke did he?? I would have told him to go sit on his mighty throne (toilet) and blow it out his a@s. I hope your day is going well !
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Post by Mayberry on Nov 26, 2007 16:38:37 GMT -5
Reading your recent entries, my dear, made me realize (again) why so many people choose to muddle through life with broken and hurtful communication...it is easier than doing the work required to build new patterns of communication. Not better...no, not better at all, but easier.
Your "weird update" was, well, rather curious. Hmmm.
Not only am I curious about the working title to your book, but I'm also curious to read the Church Report. I may not have much to offer or much time to offer in response to your sharing, but I can promise I would read, and with interest too!
Missing you. J
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Post by LookingUp on Nov 26, 2007 18:46:34 GMT -5
Your patience with his communication continues to amaze me, LU. It's not just patience with himself. I'm apparently not a good communicator, either. Might as well practice on somebody who says they love me and who I love - hopefully that love will help us work through the bumps of communication so we can have better, healthier communication with others. LOL. Actually I'd decided if he hands down another royal dictate that I'll kiss his ring and call him "Your Holiness."
Reading your recent entries, my dear, made me realize (again) why so many people choose to muddle through life with broken and hurtful communication...it is easier than doing the work required to build new patterns of communication. Not better...no, not better at all, but easier. Going from poor communication to healthy is like taking a car with poor shocks over a road with pot holes and no railings. It's a rough ride. Hopefully having healthier communication will be worth the hard ride. I'm sure in time we'll know which pot holes to avoid and will replace the worn shocks (behavior) with smooth-riding ones. I thought it was weird, too. I really questioned it in my head. I can see him bragging on my achievements; but I had trouble thinking he'd tell them what it's about. I queried today and he got all offended and said he didn't say that - that he only gave them the title. I know with my mild brain injury (MBI) that I don't always process things right or remember exactly. I think I'm being gaslighted - but my MBI may be the cause. Being gaslighted is hard to determine - or it wouldn't be called gaslighting; but then you throw in a physical limitation and it really makes life difficult. At times I think he's used my MBI against me; not on purpose to hurt me but it's an easy excuse for him to change stories. But other times, I wonder how much is my MBI. Discovery to Recovery. Sunshine gave me the title (first post on lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=journal&action=display&thread=1116273386&page=105). I've missed you, too. Glad you're back amongst the healthy. I've been a bit spacy today so will write the church report tomorrow when I'll be more accurate.
Mr. LU says he will no longer read my journal because I portray him in a bad light. His example was when he went to visit his daughter and grandson - he was gone 3-1/2 hours. I did NOT say that his daughter was an hour drive each way. Since, if I remember correctly, I said my concern was he wouldn't have HAD to have gone there but could have gone elsewhere and was porning or worse - thus the amount of driving distance was irrelevant. We've already spoken of the fact that what I type here will be from my perceptions and not from his. He thinks since I don't give his opinion that I'll heed advice based on only my opinion. Yet, he's not willing to join and give his opinion. But, as a positive, he DID admit today that he realized he deserved to loose trust, that he realizes why I can't trust him yet and that he understands why I was distressed about his 3.5 hour trip to town. That's a positive. It showed he may be learning empathy.
Mr. LU mentioned that at one time I gave him the choice of discussing his addiction with my friends or talking to anonymous people on the Internet. He chose internet. He says I betrayed him by telling the five people who know and I need to rebuild the trust that I've broken. (I don't include pastors or counselors in that group). My sister, my son's wife, a friend in our old town, and two women here I prayed with 4 days a week for over a year. I think for the 5 or 6 years that I've been dealing with his visual adultery that I've been very careful not to talk about it to too many people. Two other women know but I didn't tell them - God told them when they were praying for me and they came to me to ask confirmation so they could focus their prayers for our situation. I know my memory isn't the greatest (I've had a brain injury and some things get lost in the brain-fog - 30% loss of working memory according to the neuropsychologist). It seems later we discussed that and he knew I was going to talk to a couple safe people. In fact, my recovery plan (# 28) linked below, says that I would tell some safe people and I'd use discretion. Thus, even if we didn't discuss it - the last three in-house separations, I've given him a copy of my recovery plan.... so why wait 2 years to bring it up? My first response was anger that he'd accuse me of betraying HIM after what he did to our marriage by betraying ME. I'm usually very quick to apologize, but this time it just stuck in my craw and I didn't apologize. I feel like he's trying to pull me down to his level so he doesn't feel so ashamed. I just want to throw myself on my bed and cry. I don't want to deal with more stuff, more accusations, more blame, more pain. Guidance on moving ahead is welcome. What's the Biblical way to handle this? LookingUp
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