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Post by dazednconfused on Dec 9, 2007 20:56:38 GMT -5
Lee-
What are your boundries? What are you both doing to rebuild your relationship?
Suggestions:
Have boundries clearly stated. If mb is not acceptable, tell him... and what action will /needs to be taken if there is a "slip" (Hate that word). Boundries are what are there to protect you emotionally while supporting him.
Are you going to marriage counseling to rebuild your intimacy (not sexual, emotional and spiritual)? What steps are you taking and he taking to rebuild trust. He broke it with his prning, he need to fix the trust.
Timing: he really has NO RIGHT to judge your healing. To give his a guide, tell him for each minute he took prning, lying and covering up, it will take you twice as long to heal- so if he prned for 8 years, look at 16 years before fuly healed and totally trusting. That is a pretty good rule of thumb. (for me it has been about 20 months of him in recovery and us working on our marriage. I am at about 90%, and that sense of the other shoe falling creeps in about every 2 months, but my husband told me about his addiction and was commited to recovery before he came clean with me)
What ever you feel comfortable with is all you should do. PLEASE protect your emotional and spiritual well being by only going as far as you are comfortable... not following that can really set your healing back.
His recovery is his responsibility. He dug this hole, you can cheer him from the sideline, but he has to dig himself out, without pulling you down too.
The mb "slip" (did I mention I hate that word?)- what led to it? what is his recovery plan? Is he following it? what triggers were there? Has he talked to an Accountability partner about it?
To be supportive of his recovery I suggest telling him you will be more than willing to work on your marriage and recovering it from this addiction. He needs to work his recovery and support you in yours... you need to work your recovery, but you both need to commit to building your marriage out of this mess.
OPen Hearts by patrick Carnes is a workbook to help couples. recoverynation has a couples section and I think there is a link on recovery nation to recovering couples.org or something like that.
good luck
-dazed
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Post by zerotolerance on Dec 10, 2007 21:31:35 GMT -5
Humm, ohhhhh, *sigh*. I was hoping you'd get more replies. I know my mind is SUPERSIZED about this topic right now, because I've been sorting out what factors are in this element lately. It's intense stuff though, and RAW data, but here it is in rough draft form. It's unedited too, so please excuse any errors and read between the lines if I leave out words, or whatever. Ya'll know what I mean ;-)
On some level it (their mb) gives us that quirky, weird, hurtful, feeling, that we can't quite name, but it rips at our guts, and souls nonetheless. We know it is there, and we can't deny it. It doesn't matter what others say, we FEEL it. So, (like any trigger) I've been trying to learn to name all the elements in it for me to settle my confusion, and tame this trigger. 1. mb - my view in nutshell, There is some normalcy in childhood or puberty to discover our parts, and play with them. That's naturally normal per se. Because we are still developing, spiritually, mentally, physically, and emotionally, we don't have all our parts on and firing in harmony yet. Since they are still developing, we're rarely using our Hearts/Minds/Bodies/& Souls all at the same time. So when one mbs, it's body, and some mind only. When one adds p, then the mind part explodes, and so it's serious mind, and the same amount of body as before or depends on what the person does. But the heart and soul is ignored, put on the back burner and ignored. The effects are cummulative, and progressive. Healthy people move thru the stage of exploring mb once we have sex imo. Sex is soo much better we leave mb behind and seek relationships and sex. That to me is the natural way. So a certian amount for discovery may be normal, but when a person makes a habit of it, then havoc is played in the other areas of development. At first there, or in small amounts maybe, there is some ability to mb without it messing up one's entire perspective, and development. But in large doses, it's damage is widespread, cummulative, pervausive, and progressive. If a person performs solo sex repeatedly, ignoring the importance of their heart and souls input, then eventually, their hearts and soul parts are repressed, or remain undeveloped. We grow soul holes per se. Engaging in any behavior that leaves parts of us, ie heart/mind/body/or soul, out of the equation, or goes against any of those things, can damage those parts and the other parts. We are designed to funtion with our hearts/minds/bodys/and souls working in harmony, providing input to enhance our decision making, and our growth. But the habitual mb's growth is inhibited. And if they are already grown before they start mb, it's still inhibited, or digresses. At first, as they build the compartmental walls, there is some ability to bring H/M/B/S along, even if they mb without parts at times. But over time, that stops happening. Or when we don't grow spiritually and emotionally, then we don't have it to bring. They function in mind/body only. And the mind part has been fed garbage-p to the point that p/sex/mb/objectification/repeating lies/defending p/mb is all that ever comes to the mind of a user. Or it comes in inappropriate amounts and at inappropriate times. They may be building walls, but they are also creating unnatural seperations at the same time imo. Those seperations, or that underdevlopment starts to show up eventually. It's one thing when a teenage boy is acting like a teenager, but it's quite another when a grown man is. It's unnatural. Mb seems to jack em up on hormones or whatever, the high. It seems to create a chemical imbalance, or lack of H/M/B/Soul harmony, that resembles perminent puberty imo. The garbage in/garbage out effect is always occurring whether one is aware of it or not. Believing lies creates the compartmental walls, and hinders development. Repeating the behavior causes effects to accumlate. One's body is train to basically function without any heart and soul input imo. It's pure selfish sexual thoughts, and pure selfish behavior-mg, in a mindless repetative fashion, playing out over and over. One's sexuality has been hi-jacked, or given away, really. It's also almost like they are hypnotized imo. Thus the development of triggers, and cycle repeats. Okay, that's my take on there side.
Now My side... Even when we can't name it, we notice those little missing things. We're acutely aware of the lack of heart and soul present, esp if we witness it becoming less and less over time. But we don't know why. We think it's us. We think it's this, or that, or stress, blah blah blah. Once we know about the p then we go thru all the p crap, getting that sorted in our minds. And one of the last elements I'm conquering is the mb factor. MB has no place in a healthy relationship. MB is not needed, nor necc, so it should not be a factor in a healthy releationship. And of course p is cheating, so it never belonged either. But those images, like all things, remain in our subconcious mind. They can pull them up at will and mb to them, or they can suddenly appear intrusively, just like our triggers. The garbage in, keeps the garbage coming out. The continued mb keeps the heart and soul, and growth elements hostage in some compartment somewhere. Mb has effects in and off it self, repetative conditioning, ED, for ex, and potentially many others. The jury is not in yet with all the effects, but some are obvious, at least to me. So in order to continue to cultivate a healthy relationship, mb doesn't ever belong in it. IF it did, then it would ONLY be in EXTREME, RARE cases, of prolonged seperation. And it should Not the backup plan for objectified sex when they can't get it with us, nor otherwise a repetative habit. Mature people engage in loving relationships with each other, don't mb in private instead. MB takes away sexual energy. It takes time, and it takes peices of one's soul. With these soul holes, comes the false need to shove stuff into them in order to not feel the hole. Or to numb the pain of the loss of wholeness, and underdevelopment, or damaged connections, that we know, but can't name. So they shove in p, mb, achohol, people etc.. But that only grows bigger soul holes, and it just rots it more brain, body, and heart. Thus the effects are progressive and cummulative. We have to fill our soul holes up from the inside, with truth, and love, and right behaviors. They can't get better if they keep engaging in the behaviors that are creating the problem. That principle is Recovery 101. We don't get to decide it don't hurt, our H/M/B/and souls come with some preprogramming that preempts our decisions. We can think we get to decide all these things for ourselves without consequences all day long but we don't get to decide what God already decided. We don't get to decide HOW we are made, we can only learn to use the elements that were provided at our birth. How we use them is up to us. We can decide that, but that doesn't make ALL things nonharmful. There are predetermined consequences and we can see them even if we can't name them, nor understand them. They are showing up in all areas of their life, disconnected on sooo many levels it's too many to list here. At best they sometimes bring a little heart and soul, but consistently accross the board it is missing. Lack of empathy, lack of compassion, lack of the full range of emotions, lack of heart, lack of soul. They become like stepford me, or p/mb men. All sexual thought, ALL the time etc... ALL objectification ALL the time. And/or when it's not there, or doesn't appear to be there, they are planning for it later. Thinking if this then I THAT again etc... Lying, hiding, building lives of secrecy. All these things take away from us, them, the kids, EVERY THING. It affects EVERY element of EVERY one's lives.
Meantime, we need them present in the moment with us. That's called living, sharing, giving. We don't want to know tidbits while they keep secrets. There is no room for secrets in a healthy relationship. You can't build intimacy without truth and honesty, and you sure can't build sexual intimacy without have expereinces with both people being fully present in Heart/Mind/Body/and soul. You can have sex, but you won't build intimacy, you won't cultivate love. There won't be any "real" soulful connections. Ours are onesided, and often projected as if we are sharing them, when often we aren't. They are faking it. Only showing up with half their being at best. It's a recipe for diaster. We're confused per se, and under the influence of the p culture lies too. We want to be cooperative and understanding. We don't have their bodies, so we let them explain it to us, unaware that they have damaged their H/M/B/and Souls. Ya know. So we get garbage out of them, not the truth about it. They can't give us what they don't have. They don't know the truth, they only know their habit. And by now their bodies are always screaming for it. So they engage in mb, while we're on the sidelines over and over, and while telling us it is two seperate things. blah, blah, blah.
Two people are in a relationship, and that means when things are decided, two people have input. Both peoples input should be considered, and a compromise should be reach, and become the decision for the relationship. If there is anyting, or any behavior, that takes away from the development of the relationship, or the heath of the individuals, then it doesn't belong. It's not up to debate anymore. I'm done debating about it. I'm not competing with p, nor another man's hand again! There hands belong on us, not their PARTS. Their sexuality belong to us, not just themselves. WE need their hearts and souls and MINDS, and bodies to be present in the moment at ALL times. Not disconnected due to p/mb effects. We feel this lacking, even when we can't name it. IT HURTS!!!!
So we try to talk about it, and we get the blah blah blah. It's always me, me, me, me, me, because they never developed, or lost, the ability to think of others, and have empathy, and know right from wrong etc... They are just p/mb machines, and in that stupidity, they reject us. Over and over they reject us. We're objectified anyway, so our concerns are always met with p spew doo. Without emotions of their own they dog ours. But that HURTS us, and it doesn't work for us. At the core, imo, is the very idea that we have to compete with their hand and watch em go brain dead while doing it. We might not have made ALL the connections, but when we do, there's not room for mb imo. It's like they have choice, one hand the false "need" to mb, and on the other hand the REAL NEED for loving, sharing, giving relationships. They choose the false "need", which is really a selfish WANT, over the real need. They argue with us about mb when mb should not even be in the realtionship to begin with. It should be a none issue, and instead they are defending mb. And what are they defending it against? AGAINST US, against our mental health, against our spirituality, against our sexuality, and against our common sense taboot. Rather than choose the CORRECT choice, our relationships, their H/M/B/S health, and ours, healthy sexuality, fully development minds, hearts, and souls, they choose mb. And they whine about it. "me, me, me, I want to play with me! I want to play with me!" It doesn't matter if they are SAYING it or not, THEY ARE DOING IT! And they do it over and over and over. They choose something soo SHALLOW, over EVERYTHING GOOD. That's just crazy in my book. So no wonder it makes us crazy too when we try to go along with it! WE know we, us, I, him, them, kids, and EVERYthing, and EVERYbody, is way more important than playing with oursleves. There is a BIGGER PICTURE, they arent' even looking at while one is under the influence of a p or mb or both, and, or, any the influence of any number of other things that damage ones H/M/B/or S. It's about balance, and harmony, and OUR WHOLE selfs BEING PRESENT 100% of the time, or to the best of our ability at that time, while continously gaining new skills at it. Not while stuck in immaturity, or puberty, or feeding a soul hole, in hate, in p, or mbng.
And those don't even count the other factors like what their solosexuality takes away from us. Less sex, no love, inability to preform, no soulful connectedness, used as mb recipticles, escalating practices, etc... OUR OWN SOUL DAMAGE, pain, aggrevation, rudeness, namecalling, verbal abouse, emotional abuse, voicelessness, objectification, isolation, their procrastination. It takes away our very lives, and it's okay to not be okay with that! It should be what two people decide anyway, not one, and certianly not about THIS SUBJECT ANYMORE. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH ALREADY. It's time to start growing again, IN ALL WAYS. So for those reasons and hundreds more, I've decided that they are wrong about mb, and I'm not sharing my next man with his own hand!
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Post by truthorlie on Dec 10, 2007 23:20:50 GMT -5
ZT,
I am so glad that you and others write such good and descriptive posts in your own words. Sometimes, as you know fully well, you think things and know things but at one time or another cannot easily express your own thoughts and feelings into words.
I have so often noticed in your writings when you speak of intuition and following your gut, etc. But the most compelling subject that you write about, specifically, is when we (the SO's) start getting that weird void that is so full (and not void at all) and thick feeling of NOTHINGNESS spewing from the SA/PA's. Its an oxymoron that so much of absolutely NOTHINGNESS can come radiating out from them it almost knocks you down in waves. And it is so incomprehensible when it is happening that we get all confused and seek to pinpoint something or someone or an action or anything to explain this extreme feeling of "the black hole" sucking the energy and life out of us and our world around us!
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