Honest Opinions needed.

[megan11]

Ok with recent events, i checked his email (home email) last night and found something he had written to himself on Oct 3rd. He has claimed to be MB/P free since Jan, this doesnt seem to me like he has, but i just could be spinning out of control with everything else going on here. Do his words sound like he has been "clean" since Jan?


My goal here is to try and figure out why I do the bad things I do and then make sure I dont ever do them again. I hurt my family more than I could even describe. My wife lost her faith in me. My kids think I am gonna leave and they see that my wife and I don't get along. So, I have to find a way to change my life.
Now, where do I start. I guess I have to try and figure out why it is I cant stop thinking about masturbating and why I can't stop looking for porn or something to look at while I do it. I have a hard time not staring at all kinds of women. So much so that my wife doesn't like to go out with me because I do it so much, I can't hide it. I have been kidding myself when I say I think about it quite a few times during the day. It has taken over my life and I do it without even thinking.

[mo4wo1]

What does "clean" mean to you, megan11?

[megan11]

Well,I guess I mean no P and no MB since Jan.

[iambetrayed]

It sounds to me, if he wrote this just to himself, like he is really searching for a way to change. He sounds sincere. He sounds like he is desperate to be the person that he wants to be.

I can't judge whether or not he is still acting out. Yes, he is speaking in the present tense - could that just be his writing style? He does say that he can't stop thinking about mb, not that he can't stop doing it. But then he says he can't stop looking for porn - or is that why he is looking at women so much? My h tells me that , to him, objectifying was just like p. It felt the same. I don't know, Megan. I can imagine how hard this must be for you if he has been telling you he has been p/mb free all of this time. It is very easy to read this as he is still doing at least some of this stuff. Is it possible that he did stop, but that he is in a constant "white-knuckling" struggle? I don't know. My husband tells me that there were times - months, even once more than a year when he basically white knuckled. Of course he always went back. They can't do that forever.

You asked for honesty, but I hesitate. The truth is that if I found that my husband wrote that recently that I would think that he was probably acting out.

If he wrote this two months ago ... I think he needs more help than he is getting. That counselor you are dealing with is not helping him, either, apparently. Is your husband on Recovery Nation? He says he wants to understand why he does this and that can really help him if he really wants to understand.

Hugs to you, sweetie. Whatever you may or may not find out - maybe this email you found is a gift to you letting you have a glimpse into how he really wants to be sincere.

[megan11]

I cant stop thinking about masturbating and why I can't stop looking for porn or something to look at while I do it.

Its the whole "while i do it" part that makes me not believe. If he were thinking, fine but he has told me he found and threw it out after he hit the work bathroom to use it. He says he didnt "do it" So the Do it part is what makes me believe, or i should say not believe he has been P/MB free since jan like he told me he has been.

[mo4wo1]

Megan11, have you considered just letting yourself not believe him? Have you considered just allowing yourself to not have to argue with it?

What I'm getting at...

I told H some time ago, that ".. right now I am not willing to trust your words, I must see proof." I told him that he had taught me to not believe him. It's not about him but rather about me. I just didn't trust that I could handle another discovery. So, to protect myself, I had chosen, to just go with my gut regardless & expect that there be proof provided with things. No more "just words". He abused that trust, that privilege too much.


He, thankfully, gets that now. And, he is providing proof, now.

I still question my judgment at times -- many times -- but I am working on that. Even when it feels off & uncomfortable, I do what my real instincts are telling me to do, the ones that won't shut up.

What if he is lying & in denial with you about his continued use, if he is still using? What are your consequences for him & you?

If I were in your place, I would set down & try to talk with him, calmly & allow him to answer the questions fully. When H gives vague answers, I tend to ask him to explain. I even ask him to explain why he's apologizing when he does. I want things clear between us with no room for misunderstandings. Plus, I am no longer willing to just guess & hope he meant whatever.

I'd talk to him. He may be hiding something or he may not.

Mo

[megan11]

Mo, if i found out for SURE that he is still using i am gone. He is well aware of this, as he has been told.
The biggest problem that we have is that it will be a year in Jan since he got caught and he STILL cant answer some of the questions that i NEED answered. It seems like i am just abig ball of nothing to him. I ask a question, i get an "I dont know" I cant live with the IDONT KNOWS!
H Why did you have a secret myspace account, those women were not naked, and you said that you only MB to P or nakedness??? And WHY were these women only local women you viewed?
Megan, i only viewed them cause i hoped i would stumble onto a naked pic, and only locally for 2 years because if i searched them all it would have been a million pages to look through of women.
(Last i checked an SA would love a million pages to look at, the more women the better? Right? What would it matter if she lived in Guam or Puerto Rico?)

H Why did you used to rinse your thang off after sex with me, but only for about a 3 year span of our 12 year marriage?
Megan, I dont know.

H, why were you searching for Latina women and asian women, is that what you like? (i am neither)
Megan, i just got bored and searched for them.

[LookingUp]

megan,

I think you're hoping that some day his addiction will make sense to you. It's been probably five years and it still doesn't make sense - I don't think my brain can get into such a dysfunctional place that it will ever make sense. I am learning to live with the dissonance of not understanding and feeling okay with that.

If he'd ask you why you chose to wear blue jeans instead of sweats today, for example, could you give a good reason? I mean a reason good enough that somebody else would grasp and understand why?

As for searching for women of other cultures - all that shows is that his addiction is leading him around. I doubt if that makes any more sense to him then it does to you. When I have a food binge, why do I sometimes pick sweets, sometimes meat (which I don't even like) and sometimes chips? If you'd ask me, I couldn't say why - it seemed like a good idea at the time.

If he'd ask you why you question him reasonably sometimes, sometimes just shut up in frustration or sometimes blast him - could you explain to somebody else's satisfaction why you chose that coping tool at that time? Often our choices have no rhyme or reason - even to us; it's just the way we do things.

You might be asking questions that have no reasonable answers.

[trigger]Sometimes my husband would rinse off after sex, sometimes not. Apparrently when the goo dries, it can make his skin a bit uncomfortable.... it's his goo, too - so it's not about me. [/trigger]

Had I read that letter, I'd think my husband was searching for answers - but I'd also question his current sobriety. The way it's worded, I'm uncertain if he's doing the behaviors or just frustrated with his thought processes that lead him to want to do those behaviors. I agree with mo - he does sound sincere, baffled, confused and full of hope that he can figure out how to overcome it.

I agree with mo's wonderful suggestion - talk to him and gently restate your question until he opens up - especially about his sobriety. Use your boundaries - they will keep you safe.

LookingUp

[spittingnails]

megan11 said:

Ok with recent events, i checked his email (home email) last night and found something he had written to himself on Oct 3rd. He has claimed to be MB/P free since Jan, this doesnt seem to me like he has, but i just could be spinning out of control with everything else going on here. Do his words sound like he has been "clean" since Jan?

Does he use his email as a type of journal? Does he know you have his passwords? For me, deciding weather or not to believe would have alot to do with those answers. If he does use his email as a journal, then it does sound like he's staying clean, though obviously still struggling. If writing himself emails is out of the ordinary and he knows you check his account, then I'd lean toward believing he wrote that for your benifit banking on you checking it at some point. Ultimately, go with your gut.

[megan11]

He does know i check it. i felt the same way. seems like he is fluffing me, to me.

[megan11]

LU i have been waiting for you to post! I agree that there are things that i will never understand but there are aslo some things that i just cannot live with the I dont know answer.
If i picked a pair of jeans it was prob because i was not PMS'ing and bloated that day, so they were more comfy. I cant really say that i do things without a reason for doing them, so i dont understand that way of being. Hell, i am nowhere near perfect i just seem to do almost everything for a reason. Mayeb i am a thinker too much? Then again, i must be a thinker too much, otherwise i wouldnt sit and think of they Why's and whats of this whole situation.
I just wish that he would talk to me, its been a long time for me and i thing that after almost a year i deserve some honest answers to the questions i have, and if he wants to make this better for us he will offer them up. He doesnt, and i am only left with what my bad mind tells me.

[spittingnails]

yeah, it kinda does if he knows you check it. Could be that he wanted you to be "reassured" that he was being a good boy or that he's struggling, wants you to know but doesn't know how to tell you? I hate to jump to the "he's done wrong" conclusion because I don't know him and meaning can get lost when you're reading a strangers words. If he knows you check it, I tend to think there's got to be SOME reason he WANTED you to read it. Those weren't just words he wrote to himself, IMO.

[kello2005]

I'd take some time to look through the recovery journal's in the PA section. When reading through one or two of them there were times when these guys would actually go a year with P/MB, but then slip briefly and then get right back on the wagon.

I'm not saying this is happening in your case....but I wouldn't immediately conclude that he has been lying for the better part of a year. The ebbs and flows of recovery can leave some people feeling amazing about their progress (e.g., I'm feeling super confident and have had no objectifying thoughts today!) and then literally 3 days late it can be "what was i thinking looking at that? why can't i stop this? why is this so hard? So as you can see, with addiction, ups and downs are common.

Without mentioning the email - IMO - I'd talk to him about his ups and downs with recovery - how things are going without making accusations...hopefully this will allow him to open up....you may discover that he was P free for months and months and needs a push to get back on it after slipping.

I think that this conversation and the credit card situation should be discussed separately, IMO.

I can't remember if your SO is doing the workshop on http://www.recoverynation.com...but if he isn't...it's worth looking into..it has given my SO a lot of insight.

keep your head up!

[LookingUp]

megan11 said:

I just wish that he would talk to me, its been a long time for me and i thing that after almost a year i deserve some honest answers to the questions i have, and if he wants to make this better for us he will offer them up. He doesnt, and i am only left with what my bad mind tells me.

As mentioned, I think it's been 5 or 6 years since our first D-Day - at least the first D-Day I stopped believing it was all his kids doing the porn on the computer. All I've ever got is "I didn't physically cheat." and "I wasn't that bad." Doesn't give a girl much to go on rebuilding trust. Thus, he knows until he is willing to be open and honest and speak all of his truth - that I won't trust him. As long as I don't trust him, then I won't be as open and loving to him as I would be if I trusted him totally.

I understand about the not knowing leaves a big hole in our truth and we can only fill it with whatever evil thing pops in our mind. When I told my husband I hated there had been thousands of women - he looked stunned and said he really hadn't porned that much. Aurgh. It can be crazy making, I know.... but I choose serenity. The truth will come out when he's good and ready and in the mean time I'll just stay detached and live my own life and do things I enjoy doing and set a standard for the type of behavior that I'd like him to start showing.

I agree you deserve some answers. But that might be an unrealistic expectation. He may not be at the point in his recovery that he even knows the truth to tell you the answers. My counselor often told me that holding onto the hope of him giving me the answers I deserved weren't hurting him - but they were hurting me and tearing our marriage further apart. I made the choice to have serenity even without the answers and eventually my emotions started lining up with that choice... I still occasionally feel panic because there are so many unknowns - but it's rare and when I catch myself, I talk soothingly and urge myself back into serenity where his addiction isn't controlling my life.

As mentioned, I put on 70 pounds during the early stages of discovery; but have stayed the same weight for over 2 years now - with about 15 pound loss the past few months. Why did I eat? I could have given what was logical reasons to me at the time - but to a sane mind, they wouldn't have been logical. I think we can rationalize in hind-sight - but when we're cruising through the cabinets or refrigerator; or grazing our way through food we're not hungry for --- it's hard to explain so others will understand? I think that's probably similar to how it is for a PA and lust - they don't know why because it's senseless. Just as I can mindlessly cruise the fridge or graze the grub - if my husband would stop me at that time and ask my why, I'd be clueless for a sane answer. "Because it seemed like a good idea?" Of course, I'd throw back at him the same deception that I told myself to eat mindlessly - "I wanted a snack to take the edge off the hunger." or "I was afraid if I didn't eat some that it would be all gone when I did." or "It seemed like a good idea." or "It tasted good." To me, those sound logical at the time I'm heading towards acting out with food because I have to justify my behavior (through denial that I'm already full) or I wouldn't overeat -- but if I tell myself all the facts, that I just had a full meal, that my tummy is comfortably full -- then those reasons are just part of my denial to get me to binge with food. I'm sure when I was in the food back then, that my husband often shook his head trying to shake-off the thoughts that would have been crazy-making had he analyzed them. She just ate a hamburger, shake and fries - why does she need cake and ice cream now? The same way - after I'd been satiated by my binge, I couldn't have told you why, what it did for me, or what lead up to that behavior... it was just how I dealt with life back then. I may never know why, or even understand many of my deceptions to keep me there - but my behavior change is what's important. I never was one to hide food or eat in secret - so those weren't problems for me.

LookingUp

[zerotolerance]

if i found out for SURE that he is still using i am gone. He is well aware of this, as he has been told.

Unfortunatley, these type declarations usually only enhance their hiding of it, not their becoming more open about it. Their minds twist what we say into unimaginable ways (until ourselves struggling with em). My h's twist on a statement like that would be that he can't let me know, not that he has to stop.

I think a good rule of thumb is asking oursleves, WHY we think we need to know this or that, or how knowing could/would matter. Really, once we know they p and lie, we already have enough to justify any decision we might make. Is cheating once a reason to leave? YES actually it IS. Is lying always a reason too? YEA, I THINK SO! Yet we experience both these occurances over and over, and we end up trying to find a way to justify staying when we know it's not working for us. And we end up looking to them to fix US. They can't fix us, they are usually in denial themselves. So when we keep expecting it, we are just asking for trouble, and we usually get it. We try soo hard to believe their lies, when we should be trying to accept the truth, and what that truth means to us, or for our choices of behavior.

If you knew HE was p-ng, then you'd go, but you already really know it, yet you're looking for a reason to stay. I understand this thinking, and it sucks to get stuck in it. You're looking for signs that aren't there. And you're aware they are misisng. So what do YOU want to do about it, that IS within your control. You can do nothing. Or you can decide it's "not enough" after the all the rest he's done, and CHOOSE to move on, or you can continue to tke the wait and see approach, or you can talk him about it, or go around him for the truth too. Only you decide what YOU will do, he doesn't get to control that. You might not have any control over what he does, but we can control how we CHOSE to react to it. We can let our triggers get the best of us, and stay in these horrid fearful thoughts, or we can choose not to let our imaginations run as amok as theirs do. Sometimes it's intrusive, I know, but once we know we are hearing those intrusive thoughts, the FEAR per se, we can choose to tell them ourselves to shut the fk up because we don't want to be a party to it, knowningly. Or we can tell ourselves whatever script, that WE decide would work better for us, at those time.

Let's take your best case scenerio, he's not p-ng anymore. But he obviously still has p thoughts, he hasn't filled himself up with something new, ya know that already. And that's a problem for you, because now we know that most of thier thoughts revolve around p. Really, his words show GREAT insight in the fact that he realize he is not running his life, p is running his life. It has taken over, creating a life of it's own within him. Even though it is only a morsel to those of us who see more clearly, for a user, it's HUGE imo. It requires more than just realizing it though, it requires action. Just writing it down is action, but if he don't reenforce some better ideas, then he will always be prone to slip. If not with p, then by replaying old images in his mind, or creating fantasies about those he sees in public, which are both still p-ng. Still feeding p beast which will only bring him more, and more p thoughts. So you need to be looking for more proof than his mere words. But some of the truths you seek are within YOU, and they are independent of him alltogether. Even if he has quit, and doesn't fantasize anymore, you aren't healed. You have all these fear based demons growing in you now. And our perception of their perceptions is clouded by our own views, and our lack of their compartments, etc... It's not really a thinking thingy to them, they do it automatically, becasue they program themselves to inadvertantly. Just like we inadvertantly get progammed to see the worst case scenerios too, by living them, over and over. Both them and us create your relationships. If we give into fearful thoughts that we allow to alter or control our behavior, or pain that keeps down, it is no different than them giving into p. It's just a different kind of dysfunction. But it's a dysfunction that gets into us, and that is where we have to address it at. We, inside ourselves, are where we will find the best results, not by looking at them.

You don't need him to slip, or not to slip, in order to be able to decide what is best for you! You have that power whenever you choose to exercise it. When we really learn that our lives are UP TO US ALONE, it's so empowering. But we are falsely taught to be dependent on others for what we need to get from within ourselves. We don't get their way, so we might as well try something different eh? When I realized this fact it was one of the most empowering moments of my life. The factors are interlocking, so we have to sort it all out. What are you in control of? What happens to you when he p's that you are soo fearful of. I already know, it's rhetorical. What if the worse case happens? In some ways we become just as much a victim of our own damaged souls as we do theirs. But getting the damage out of us, fixes more things than we can imagine. I can't count how many times I've sped off down one path, trying to fix one thing, only to discover how looking at that really fixed other things, and not just what I was seeking to fix a the time. There's so much truth in the saying that The Lord works in mysterious ways. We aren't meant to necc understand every element of every factor in the way we try to do. There is a factor where some things are beyond our comphrehension. And we have to learn that that is okay. We can still function well, and still make good choices for ourselves, for the most part, even though we don't eve know it all. Somethings we aren't meant to know yet, and some things vary so much from person to person, there are no resemblences to be found. We supersize our fears, just like they supersize their dependency of p. When your mind runs amok, it's not on him anymore, it's in you. Take control of your mind back from the p demons. The way to do this is thru honoring the truth. I know that part of the problem is you don't know the truth and we can't depend on them for it. So don't, depend on you. Depend on the fact that you are solely responsible for you and you alone. That the doors for these demons entering our hearts and minds and souls might have been opened by their behaviors, but OUR behaviors, and only ours has the capacity to shut them. When we know that we will be okay no matter what they do, because we are strong capable of deciding for ourselves people, then it doesn't matter near as much what they do anymore. And there's this weird thing that happens when we change us. That's often where we see the biggest changes in them. Fear begots fear imo, so we all have to stop giving into our fears. I know it is easier said than done. But all you have to do is decide what YOU really think about it, and get your heart,mind, body and soul, all functioning on the same page within YOU. Then most of these fears quit haunting us. We have to decide, once and for all, what is best for OURSELVES, ie most loving, healthiest, best chance for success things, and we do that by eliminating all the lies that keep us stuck thinking the IF THIS, THEN THAT, crap. Like IF he is p-ng then I'll leave. When you can decide what you want to do no matter what he does or doesn't do. We don't really have to convince anyone but our own selves of these truths. But I warn you, that unless you get the fear out of you first, you'll only be taking it into future relationships with ANYONE. We keep putting that garbage in or allowing it to stay in, and we are going to keep getting more of it out. Some of it is justified because of what they do, or have done, but a lot of it is solely on US for allowing it to breed within us, unchecked and running amok until it takes us over. It is within OUR control to monitor, and change what we think in our minds, and what we do with our bodies, and who we allow in our inner circles, etc... We have to make our decisions based on the thruths that we know at the time, not on "what if's" nor "If only's". But rather deal with what you know to be true. Deal with and base your decisions on the facts you can verify, not on our imaginations running amok. If you aren't clear, ask him. And then judge for yourself if you are hearing more lies, more denial, or if there is evidence of truth in what he says. Do your liar alarms go off? Are we projecting our thoughts? Or listening to their thoughts? Look for what you can verify, then build on those. If he is p-ng, you'll find out about it, in God's time, not necc on our time table, nor how we would have prefered.

Like your h says, he can't hide it. If it is there, you see it, you feel it, you know it. So why do you doubt it? Why do you doubt your ability to judge. I know it is because we can't tell up from down in our confusion, or so it seems. But just grab hold of any one of those confusing thoughts, and settle that one. And then do it again, and again. When we settle them, they stop coming back, and then we can move forward again. We have to unstack our pain ourselves. They can't do that. They are part of the problem, not knights in shining armor like we like percieve they will be. We put good and truth in us, and we'll get good and truth out, instead of these horrid triggered fear based thoughts. And when we stand in the light of the truth, we see how little it really matters what they do or not.

We don't have to share everything we think and learn with them. I know we want to, but it's not good strategy with users imo. They twist it, and divert it, and make it worse. So don't look at him for the answers you need for you. Look to you, look to God, look to others that seem to have it more figured out than you do, than he does. We may never be able to trust them again, but we can learn to trust us, and our ability to make good decisions for ourselves. We can learn to trust that we can discern what hurts us and what doesn't. What's loving and what's not. We can learn that what we do is not dependent on what they do unless WE allow it to be.

These things are what we should have learned all along, but didn't. We don't come into these relationships with whole souls either, but we don't know that until we clog our souls up with truth from within, and stop trying to shove outside stuff in there. There are elements they are responsible for, like some of these new triggred ones we get, but we helped em inadverntantly. We try to believe the lies too, we try to live in them with them. We pretend, and that hurts us. So when we learn to stop helping, by not engaging in the things that make us work, then we're making progress. That's the point where healing really begins imo.