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Post by james78 on Jun 29, 2007 7:55:04 GMT -5
Ok Brothers, I have something I need to share with you all.
We have a problem, a rather large problem. That problem lies with our salvation. Here is my testimony.
Years ago (say around 9 years), while buying porn mags, the clerk gave me a video about the rapture. I started visiting him after work, we talked about Christ and I finally invited Christ into my heart. Oh goody, now I can go to heaven. One problem, I WAS NOT SAVED. Fast forward many years of depravity and sin (and marriage and wonderful children) to about 1 and a half years ago. I called myself a Christian during the intervening period, but didn't do a good job of it. Didn't go to church even. Then I listened to the DaVinci code on audiobook (I drive trucks, so I listen to books while I drive). I was stunned, and decided to look into the claims of this piece of blasphemy and realised it was false. It did, however, strengthen my belief in God (the oposite of it's intended effect I am sure). I decided to seek Christ again, and looked into churches (still didn't go). I put my son into Christian School and a few months ago I finally went to church. Recommited myself to Christ. Yay. One problem. STILL WASN"T SAVED! Still lived in sin. The Bible is VERY clear. I give you 1 John 3:6-10:
"6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother."
It cannot be any clearer than that. I continued to live in sin, to CHOOSE sin. Therefore I was not in Christ, I was of the DEVIL. Well, 4 weeks ago, I came to the end of myself. I knelt and prayed to God. I repented (notice that very important word), told God I was sorry for it and asked for his forgiveness. I confessed what I had done. You know what? That night was the last time I looked at porn. Since then, my outlook on life has changed. Now I KNOW I am saved. I have finally died to my old self and have been born again in Christ.
Continued below....
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Post by james78 on Jun 29, 2007 8:12:44 GMT -5
Now that you have my story, I want to share some truth with you.
First, seeing as how you are Christians, I want you to think very hard about your answers to these questions. Answer honestly, in your heart. God already knows, and I am not asking you to tell anyone else.
1. How did you become a Christian? Were you born into it? Did you joined a church? Did you "Make a decision for Christ"? Did you "invite Jesus into your heart"?
2. Do you live in sin. Even Christians sin, but a Saved person FALLS into a sin, unsaved people DIVE into sin (and usually wallow in it). Do you only sin against you will, or do you make provisions for sin, and choose to sin?
3. When you sin, do you "relapse" and keep on doing it for a while?
Thought about your answers, good.
Question 1 - If you answered yes to any of these, you may NOT BE SAVED! There is only ONE path to salvation in the Bible. You have to repent of your sin. To repent you have to know your sin. To know your sin, you need to look at the law. The law chases us to the cross. Once there, we see what Jesus did on the cross for us. Once you see your sin, and what God did to erase it, you have to repent and ask for forgivness. It is a simple formula, but most teaching is centered solely on receiving the gift of salvation without teaching about repentance.
Question 2 - If you only sin against your will, after a struggle, and feel awful while you are sinning then that is a sign of salvation. If you make a concious decision for sin, enjoy the sin, or live in a sinful lifestyle you are not yet saved. That is clear as can be from 1 John 3.
Question 3 - If you fall into a pattern of sin, it is an indcation that you are not saved. A saved person cannot live in sin. Again, read 1 John 3.
Well, if you are still confident of your salvation, good for you. If not, then I urge you to read on. There is, of course, a way out of this mess.
Continued...
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Post by james78 on Jun 29, 2007 8:54:46 GMT -5
If you are not sure of your salvation, or you are sure that you are unsaved, please read the following.
God has a plan for your salvation. To understand it, you need to start by understanding the law.
Let us look at His Ten Commandments
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
Sounds simple enough, but consider, if you have not ALWAYS put God first in your life, if you have placed anything before him (even once) you have broken this commandment.
2. You shall not make for yourself any idol.
Again, go deeper into the meaning. An idol does NOT have to be a statue. Think about God. Do you understand him? Is he a kind and loving God who would not send a person who tries real hard to hell? If so, then that is not God. God is kind and loving, but He is also holy and just. Creating a god you can be more comfortble with is idolatry.
3. You shall not take the name of God in vain
Who has not done this at least one time? Any use of God's name as a profanity is abhorent to God.
4. Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy
Do you keep 1 day out of 7 aside for God? No work on this day?
5. Honor your father and mother
Did you parents ever have to tell you to do anything more than once? Did you ever not listen to them? Ever think they are horrible? God will not forget the sins of our youth.
6. You shall not murder
1 John 3:15 "who hates his brother is a murderer" If you even hate someone you are a murderer in God's eyes.
7. You shall not commit adultery
This is a yes for all of us here. Jesus told us that if we even look at a woman with lust we commit adultery in our hearts.
8. You shall not steal
Doesn't matter if you steal the Hope Diamond or a sticky note from work. You are a thief. God doesn't care what you stole, just that you stole.
9. You shall not lie
Fib, white lie, lying to your spouse, lying in court - ALL lies. Lie once, your a liar. Simple as that.
10. You shall not covet
Ever looked at a car going by and thought, lucky %@!*, I wish I could have a car like that. Or with a big screen TV, or a nice job, of fancy house? If you desire ANYTHING of someone elses you have broken this one.
In conclusion, I am an idolatrous, blaspheming, murdering, adulterous, theiving liar who has placed others before the God who gave me life, dishonored my parents, who is greedy and wants everyone elses cool stuff and has not listen and kept 1 day of 7 holy. Wow. Ten rules and I could not keep even ONE. How did you do?
Now you may ask, how on earth can you keep all those? The point is, YOU CAN'T. God KNOWS you can't. They are there to show you your inequity. God WILL be glorified. Saving YOU when you so clearly do not deserve it is HOW he will be glorified. The law chases us to calvary and the cross.
Now you understand the sin a bit better I hope. Let us look at the punishment for sin. It is death. Sin MUST be paid for in blood. God can not have sin in his presence. All sinners WILL be cast into the lake of fire. Anyone who has broken a single commandment will be thrown into the lake of fire. That is what we all deserve. Depressed yet?
Good news! God does not want to throw us into hell (but He will if he has to). In fact, he loves us so much that he sent Christ to take our sin and pay or price. He poured out his wrath on HIS OWN SON so our penalty could be paid. That is some awesome love. He did it knowing full well the extent of our sin. Even after we betrayed him he STILL did it. Amazing.
So what now? Well, the Bible tells us to repent and ask for forgiveness and put our trust in Christ. That's it. If you belive in God, and Jesus and what He did, then simply get down, tell God you have sinned and repent of your sin, and then ask for his forgiveness and put your trust in Jesus Christ.
What are you waiting for?
If you are not saved yet and take this step, why not share it with us here? I am sure we would all love to hear it.
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treadstone710000
New Member
Be revolutionary, you can change the world.
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Post by treadstone710000 on Jun 29, 2007 11:35:28 GMT -5
Great to have you as a brother james78. I enjoyed reading your last few posts. I do however disagree with some of your views. For example, if a christian doesn't put up a fight and 'struggle' with a sin but still does it, ie P and MB, then that doesn't meen that they are not saved. It meens that they are not being truthful with God and themselfs. Look at it this way: You get married. Now after a year or so you realize that you don't always treat your spouse the way you should. You have been doing this the last few months of your marrage. Your spouse has been telling you but you never realy believed him/her. Now does that meen that you were not married during that time? No, it just meens that you weren't being truthful with yourself or your wife. With God it is the same way. We are all invited into His family and we may accept that invitation. After we accept we will still sin and even enjoy sinnig. This doesn't meen that we are not truly saved and part of God's family, His grace is sufficient for that! What this meens is that sin is fun, it always has been and always will be. That is why people struggle with it. So, just because we choose to participate in sin doesn't meen that we are not saved. The Bible very plainly says that God will never let us be tempted more than we can overcome. That being said, if we ever do sin, wich if you are like me is often, it is always by choice, never by force. If we were ever forced to commit sin then what is the point of resisting? A child asks and asks for a candy bar and the parent finaly gives in and lets the child have one. The parent was not forced but chose to give the child a candy bar. God's grace covers ALL our sin, even the stuff we don't want to let go.
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Post by rockwell on Jun 29, 2007 12:39:15 GMT -5
The following IMHO:
I feel that it not really our place to say who is and is not in the Kingdom. That is God's decision. We can only know God, if God reveals himself to us and draws us to him first. God takes the first step and we respond to his spirit. For some people we come to our faith as pilgrims on a journey. This is my experience. My understanding of God and what Christ did for me came as a slow process. It was not a sudden thing. I am still on this journey to this very day.
For other people they may have a moment of conversion. Some people call this a born again experience. For these people they can point to a specific moment when they accepted Christ as their savior. Usually they can point to a specific event or date when this happened.
Faith in God and Christ happens differently for different people. Remember that God works in mysterious ways and although we come to faith in a variety of ways, the point is - how we got where we are is not as important as to whom we belong to.
If we belong to God and are in Christ, then we can confess him as Lord and Saviour. Scripture says that "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Anyone that can make this confession that Christ is Lord and believes he is the Messiah, died for our sins and was raised from the dead is a Christian.
Sin. Everyone who ever lived other than Christ has sinned. Because Christ died for the sins of the world, we are forgiven and granted new life in him. Although we still struggle with sin we have to remember that we can confess our sins to him and he promises to forgive us. We do not lose our salvation each time we sin. Christ paid for our sins period. He paid them in full forever. Therefore we need not worry that we can lose our eternal life because we cannot. If we belong to Christ we belong to him forever.
If a person willfulling sins over and over and over again and feels no remorse, then the person should question whether he really is in Christ. Because if we are in Christ we will not WAN"T to go on sinning. Being in Christ does not mean we won't sin however. We are still human, we still struggle, we are still on a journey.
So, to answer James question. I believe I am a Christian. I trust in Christ as my Lord and my Messiah. I came to faith gradually through God's Grace.
All who can share this profession, this basic profession are Christian brothers and sisters.
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Post by james78 on Jun 29, 2007 17:17:12 GMT -5
OK now brothers, I am going to be very blunt, very brutally honest here. Why? Because of my love for you. I am horrified that anyone should go to hell. Particularily for false doctrine. I want to make clear right now, that Christians DO SIN. But it is a struggle when they do.
YES IT DOES. The Bible is VERY clear on this. Read From 1 John 3
6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
This is very clear language. If uou keep sinning you have not seen and do not know Christ.
8He who does what is sinful is of the devil,
Of the DEVIL! If you are of the devil how can you be of Christ?
9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
Therefore, if you continue to sin you are not born of God. What does God have to do in order for you to open your seyes and see?
No where does it state that marriage infallible. God's word IS infallible. God's word tells us that you cannot go on sinning if you are saved. Plain and simple. Your analogy is incorrect I am afraid.
No we will not!!! When you are saved here is what happens. First, you DIE TO YOURSELF, TO SIN. You don't just leave it behind, you DIE to it. Then you are born again as a new creation. God's grace is sufficient to see us through difficult spots, it is NOT there to allow us to sin and enjoy it. If you enjoy sin, look carefully at the Word of God and yourself. It is impossible, according to scripture, to do this. And why do we struggle? Beacuse Satan is always there. We will fall into sin, but we never go into it willingly. Oh the act may bring pleasure, but if you are NOT repulsed by the sin, you likely do not knowe God.
Actually, the Bible goes on to state that God will always provide a way out as well. If we do not take the way out, it is our fault. But a saved person struggles intensely before losing this battle, an unsaved person jumps into sin.
This is the single most worriesome statement inyou post my brother. You HAVE to let go of ALL your sin. You have to DIE to it. God knows every sin you have ever comitted. You will have to answer to him. Any sin you have not let go of and repented of will be punished. God is holy and just. He MUST punish your sin. You have to give up your sin, die to it and repent of it ALL. God's grace covers all our sin yes, but ONLY if we repent of it. You have not repented if you do not give it up.
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jack
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by jack on Jun 29, 2007 17:55:32 GMT -5
Hello Fellas,
I probably should not even be on line today as I am feeling very agitated which is a risky state for me. I dont know whats going on it just seems like Im being atacked on a number of fronts and I cant seem to relax.
I just decided . Im going to church right now there is a meeting of Reformers Unanimous at 7pm. Anybody ever hear of that. Later
Jack
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treadstone710000
New Member
Be revolutionary, you can change the world.
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Post by treadstone710000 on Jun 29, 2007 18:16:12 GMT -5
Okay, it sounds as though we are saying some of the same things in different ways. My examples were purly ficticiouse, only to be compaired to, not taken literaly. I do however stand by my point that sin is fun and that people, saved and un-saved, enjoy it. If not then why are you here? Because you just struggle with P and MB? Why do you struggle? Because you like the rush, the hight that P and MB gives you, at least that is what does it for me. Yes christians do sin and fall short, but that is where God's grace kicks in and overcomes our iniquities. Yes we are new creations in Christ and yes we do die to sin, but that doesn't meen that we will never like sinning again. This doesn't give us a free pass to sin. No way does it. But I believe that to be truly honest with yourself and God part of our repentance needs to be our repentance of wanting to sin. If you didn't want to sin then there would be not struggle. The devil knows our weaknesses and thrives on them. For me, and I could guess you seeing that you are on this site, one of those weaknesses is P and MB. I do not want to do P and MB but I do it. I hate the fact that I, for some reason, continue to pick up and put back together what Christ took away and destroyed on the cross, my sin. Sin is something that I would never want to do but do it anyways. Why? Because I like the rush, or the feeling, or the false satisfaction. I know of course that sin is wrong, but I still do it. Unwillingly, no. If it was unwillingly then I just wouldn't do it. I feel that your statment about not struggleing implying not being saved is inncorrect. But I do need to get home from work. So have a great weekend my brother.
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Post by james78 on Jun 29, 2007 18:50:51 GMT -5
Actually my friend, let me point out something. You can like the act, the physical sensation, but be repulsed and heartbroken by the fact you are sinning. I submit that if you sin without feeling horrible about it, you need to look at your salvation. If there is no battle, there is no salvation.
Consider the following from Galatians 5
16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Let us look at the key points.
1. If yo ulive by the Spirit you will not gratify the sinful nature. The corallary: If you gratify the sinful nature, you do not live by the Spirit. All those who are born again and saved are living in the Spirit
2. If you do stumble, scripture tells you you do what you do not want. Your statement that if you are unwilling you would not do it directly contradicts this passage.
3. In listing the acts of the sinful nature, sexual imoorality is number one, followed by impurity and debauchery. Even hatred, which Jesus equates with murder, is down the list.
4. A fruit of the Spirit is self-control, so yes, if you live in the Spirit you struggle against sin in asserting your self-control. Satan wont give up without that struggle.
And now, I must ask, how do you interpret 1 John 3?
When God tells you if you keep sinning you do not know him, that you are of the devil what does that mean?
When God tells you that anyone born of Him will not sin, what does it mean?
This has to be one of the clearest passages in scripture.
In conclusion, if you have scripture clearly stating that you do not have to repent of all your sin, struggle against sin, and stop living in sin then please share. This is life and death stuff. If I was arguing that living in sin is allowed, I would want to be very sure of my point. Even the slight chance of going to hell is horrifying to me.
Please note, I am NOT saying you are not saved, or anyone else. I don't have all the answers, I am sharing what God told us. He decides who goes to heaven.
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Post by james78 on Jun 29, 2007 18:54:18 GMT -5
Let me also share that for almost a decade I read passages like these and still lived in sin justifying myself because I believed in Christ. I read them, then made the arguments you are making, and went on sinning. I can tell you, looking at the fruits of my life I was not saved. I tell you that in all honesty brothers. God answered some prayers for me, and has looked out for me, but I was not saved. I know this in my heart.
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jack
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by jack on Jun 29, 2007 21:03:47 GMT -5
Ok Im back from the meeting. Reformers Unanimous is a Bible based program ministry developed by Steve Curington to over come addictions or any ungodly behaviour that we might struggle with. It is specificly Christ centered so theres no ambiguity about God or hurting any ones feelings. Its a Bapist church and I am not a member of the congragation but I am welcome and have been going for a couple months now.
It is exactly what I needed tonight. There was a guest pastor who spoke about asking the Lord for help and then waiting on him to move in his own time in his own way.
I have been wandering off the path lately mentaly I am just distracted by all this treatment bussiness therapists and shrinks and 12 steps. I purposely read scripture every morning at least a few pages as a discipline in an effort to keep God in mind durring the day. I play a little music on my guitar in praise and then I go. The last couple of days I didnt do any of that and dont know why. I dont want to be without the Lord I need him.
Psalm ...Lean not on your own understanding but keep your eyes ever on the Lord for only he can release you from the snare...
In all my crazyness lately I did not act out and I have been tempted. Thank you Lord.
Jack
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Post by rockwell on Jul 2, 2007 9:23:49 GMT -5
**SIGH!!****
When I started this thread I never inteded it to be a debate form on doctrines. This is just leading people to arguments over symantics. Lets keep this thread to support for fellow Christian men. Lets encourage one another in Christ.
< ROCKWELL >
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Post by Wayward One on Jul 2, 2007 20:21:00 GMT -5
In keeping with the original spirit of this thread...
I'm grateful to know there are other Christian men out there who go through this same struggle with P and M that I do. I've gone to 12-Step groups, but it always seems to me silly that I can't call my "Higher Power" Jesus since that who it really is (like it or not).
Part of my struggle is the fact that I'm on the Internet so much of the time. I'm a web developer and I spend all day working on websites, and looking up stuff online. Then I do it some part-time as well. It's a real challenge to trying to stay sober. Being a computer geek I can always find a way around the different blockers, accountability stuff, etc. and when I'm in that "zone" there isn't anything I wouldn't do.
I'm hoping that by having something else to do online maybe I can use this board to re-channel my thinking. It's already helped some. I'm grateful that you guys are here, and I appreciate your prayers.
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Post by MrOuch on Jul 2, 2007 20:44:36 GMT -5
Thanks Rockwell for the redirect. This thread needed it.
My favorite quote that keeps me on my toes regarding P is 1 Peter 5:8:
"Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour."
But 1 Peter 5:9 is fairly applicable here too:
"Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings."
Semantics notwithstanding, we're all in this boat together. We all came here because we're sinners. We all need each others prayer and support and encouragement. God willing, we can avoid the snare of temptation and live free from P.
Peace
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jack
Junior Member
Posts: 96
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Post by jack on Jul 4, 2007 14:31:02 GMT -5
But 1 Peter 5:9 is fairly applicable here too:
"Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings."
Thank you Mr. Ouch.
Jack
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