Please Help Me Understand This Therapist!!!

[iambetrayed]

OK, Earlier in the week I wrote a crazy long post about a therapy session that I attended with my husband. Its here if anyone has too much time on their hands and wants to see it:

lightwave.proboards48.com/index.cgi?board=Partners&action=display&thread=1197688259

Anyway, ZT, whose opinion I have really come to respect, thought that the therapist may have thought that my husband had a personality disorder - narcissistic personality disorder. Someone on another board that I am on thought it sounded like the therapist was hinting at antisocial personality disorder. Like zt, she had some personal with experience with this stuff.

This week I've read tons about these sorts of disorders - And I must say it made sense in the perspective of how the therapist had acted. I thoroughly and honestly examined the characteristics, but they just did not sound like my husband at all.

So this has been a stressful week - Just when I am getting used to the fact that he is a pa I have to worry that he has a pd, too??? I was getting kind of angry and upset last night, so I emailed the therapist. Here is what I wrote:-

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Hi Therapist -

I hope that you don't mind my emailing you. I am sure that you can understand that the session that we had last Friday has made me think a lot. I found it to be pretty upsetting. Frankly, I felt that you were making some pretty severe blanket statements about husband - and I could not see that they were backed up with evidence. But I do feel the need to protect myself and consider any and every option and explanation. I have been doing some reading online and it sounds to me like you think that husband has a personality disorder - I am guessing either antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality disorder. Obviously I am no psychologist, so I could certainly be dead wrong on where your thoughts are lying. I am just basing this on what you said and what I have read this week. I am wondering if you would be willing to let me know exactly what you are thinking. I do feel that I have a right to know. Of course I understand the patient/counselor relationship, so if it is inappropriate for me to be asking this I apologize. I am hoping that you may soon be telling husband your thoughts anyway, and hopefully he will let me know if you are not able to inform me directly. I am sure that you can understand my confusion and worry with all of this.
Thank you for your time and your help. Wife

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Well - Here is the answer I received today:

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Dear Wife and Husband,

I do not harbor any thoughts about a personality disorder for Husband, I haven’t given it much thought. My recommendation to you both is that there has been a very serious deception perpetrated in your marriage, and it is not completely just Husband. You Wife, also were involved in the perpetration, both as victim, and enabler. I am concerned that you both be equally committed to being honest, forthcoming and genuine with each other, and in your lives in order to combat the problem of deception and build a relationship that you both can be proud of.

I hope this answers your question, but not necessarily relieve your anxiety. If you are anxious, that means there is more you need to understand, and Husband’s job is to help you relieve it.

Therapist

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OK, I don't know what to make of this - last week h was a martian and now I am an enabler? What was I doing to enable, I wonder ? I was somewhat worried going in there because my h had told me that at one point the therapist asked didn't he think that I was partially responsible for what went on - after all, didn't I that realize something was wrong when we were having sex so infrequently? My husband said that he replied NO - it was not my fault at all, it was totally his responsibility . So going in I was afraid that he was going to pull one of those 'pick on the woman' therapist tricks. But he didn't. He told me how my husband had so many problems - didn't believe in marriage, yada, yada.

Well, I guess I am somewhat relieved that he says that he doesn't think that there is a personality disorder in this situation - but beyond that I don't know what to think. I REFUSE to take any responsibility for the fact that my husband was sneaking around behind my back p/mb. How crazy is that? How could I enable something that I didn't even know about?

Ugh. Incidently I wrote him what I thought was a very nice reply.:

Thank you so much - I really appreciate your replying to me. I know that we have a lot to consider and work through. It does answer my question - and I do realize that there is more that I need to understand. Thank you once more for your time and your help.

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Maybe I am just not understanding the whole therapist thing, but I don't get it. Any thoughts?

[megan11]

Some Sh!t in his reply to you.
Um, go find yourself someone else, this person seems too wacked out and how DARE HE assume you should take some responsibility for your H actions!!!!!!!!!!! You are right, you did NOTHING that would make your H become a PA, nore could YOU have done anything to prevent it from happening!
Your therapist is an Id!ot!
WOW! I am appauled!

[milla]

I don't get the impression he was picking on you, I think it's just generally considered in psychotherapy that the spouse of an N would have to be an enabler to have continued in such an arrangement. He is making these assumptions from his own pov that your h has a personality disorder, because many people who stay with someone with a personality disorder have their own issues being met through the illness of the person with the disorder or therefore they wouldn't have been unable to continue in a less than reciprocal arrangment. Particularly where ASPD and NPD are concerned it is assumed that one's personality has been subsumed to the other's illness. Of course it isn't generally true as many NPD men have managed to live somewhat normally with their spouses as an anchor while their neurosis makes itself felt more in the outside world. A lot of N's need a cover.

I agree I wouldn't want to take responsibility for the fact that I had an SO sneaking about when I didn't know it and pointing it out the therapist how you feel about him indicating you as such would clarify your standpoint. It sounds like what ZT said is that you didn't have all the little red flags that some of us did and felt that you had more reciprocation going on. Therapists make mistakes all the time so he could be entirely mistaken about your SO. I think he's just basing his judgement on the pattern of deceit.

I really don't know what to say, because I don't want to sound offensive, but I do feel you should be aware that the crux of psychopathy is an ability to manipulate other people extremely well.

My father is a PA and a social socipath (social because he prefers to be out and about rather than reclusive as most sociopaths are considered to be for some reason) and most sociopaths aren't particularly physically violent. They are interpersonally violent (emotionally and/or verbally abusive) often. Really, I was always aware something was wrong with my dad because he didn't demonstrate the range of affect that I noticed in other males around me. My mother otoh really only found out about all his sneaky stuff decades later when his other life became known....otherwise she never would have known; that's how much she had been fooled. She always thought he was just a bit self-centered. . It's really only when he is thwarted in his manipulations that he becomes nasty. He can simply justify *anything*.

As long as they are dependent on you or need you for some reason they stay in some sort of line. They are generally looking for ways to manipulate you and once they've found the key that works they'll go for that for a while until it stops working. Then they'll try something else. They overly flatter you, they play on your pity. They're looking for power and control the more they get the worse they act.

Anyway, I seem to be going on here and I really only wrote this post, because it seemed important to me to point out that true psychopaths have made it their lifetime study to manipulate other people therefore they are doing it 24/7 and a lot better than the rest of us and many people who aren't expecting it have no idea it's happening a lot of times until at some point something clicks cause it doesn't fit the rest of the picture. Maybe for you it was finding the porn or maybe your h really isn't all that bad and just needs a little therapy. And therapists make mistakes too. Still, I can't stress enough how good these people are at convincing you they are good people. I've watched my dad for many years and I see how he has most people fooled. Sociopaths do have feelings. They're just feelings for themselves.

One of the ways I have found for picking up on people with ASPD/NPD is the way they modulate their voice to sound "soothing" when they are trying to manipulate/draw you in. I've noticed that my dad has this soft reptilian way of speaking that really appeals to people. It makes him seem trustworthy to them unconsciously I suppose, but because I know how dishonest my dad is I know it's just part of his snake-like persona. I even looked it up on the net and sure enough it's an ASPD trait to use voice modulation. If you notice your SO doing that I would start to investigate other ways he may be manipulating you that you hadn't considered before.

One other thing to keep in mind is that ASPD people often pass polygraphs, because they have slow nervous arousal which is what the polygraph picks up on to tell if someone is lying. In a normal person being caught in a lie causes nervous arousal, but in a psychopath it doesn't because they are organically different along with the fact that they often believe their lies and feel quite confident. My father for example has never shown anything resembling anxiety or fear on any occasion and I'm quite sure he could pass a polygraph with flying colors when in fact he lies as often as he breathes.

*I have used the terms sociopath/psychopath/N/ASPD interchangeably here - sorry if that caused confusion I don't really see much real difference between them except by degree, I suppose.

I forgot to add, that the main problem for these people is one of boundaries. How well your h deals with boundaries, the word no, for example will tell you a lot more about the depth of his disorder or whether he has one I think than anything. Whether he tries to get more from you than you wanted to give, whether he tries to give you a little less, etc. That's why a lot of these guys lead double lives and so on. It's like they always have to be getting *more* for less work, if that makes sense. It's all related to a sense of grandiosity and entitlement. They like to have a bit of drama around them too - they're a myth in their own minds. However, at the same time, they often feel like victims or at least express themselves in that type of language, like they haven't gotten what they were really worth or what they deserved.

[iambetrayed]

I appreciate your responses - but when I emailed the therapist he said that :

I do not harbor any thoughts about a personality disorder for Husband

All of the labels and such were ones that people on the boards had mentioned when I described what the the session waslike. That was just us surmising, though - as he has now clearly stated that he has not actually been thinking that my husband has a personality disorder.

Of course I have no idea what he does mean by all of this, but hey, thats a story for another day

One of the ways I have found for picking up on people with ASPD/NPD is the way they modulate their voice to sound "soothing" when they are trying to manipulate/draw you in. I've noticed that my dad has this soft reptilian way of speaking that really appeals to people. It makes him seem trustworthy to them unconsciously I suppose, but because I know how dishonest my dad is I know it's just part of his snake-like persona. I even looked it up on the net and sure enough it's an ASPD trait to use voice modulation.

This actually reminds me of the way the therapist turned around and spoke to my husband at the end of the session. I mentioned how strange it was in my original post. I swear I'm beginning to feel like I am in some creepy psychological movie

My father for example has never shown anything resembling anxiety or fear on any occasion and I'm quite sure he could pass a polygraph with flying colors when in fact he lies as often as he breathes.

This makes me feel a bit better - my husband has always shown anxiety and/or fear. In fact I think that the anxiety is what got him into so much trouble in the first place.

Anyway, thanks so much for your thorough response - there are so many knowledgeable people here - I just don't know how I would have survived this without this board.

[milla]

Well that's good then. By the way, I liked his very stilted way of talking. That was......unique. ;D

[milla]

my husband has always shown anxiety and/or fear. In fact I think that the anxiety is what got him into so much trouble in the first place.

I guess as long as you don't feel he is doing it because that's what you want to see. Or that's what he thinks will get people believing in him and off the hook.

[zerotolerance]

Well, that's really what you thought too, ya know, that your h didn't rise to the level of full blown pd. So you were right about that, just like you thought. However the way the he put it originally was definately describing him as having naricissitc type characteristics. He said was faking everything? Thats not normalcy whatsoever, so what is it? It didn't sound like you h was like mine, because you didn't have it showing up everywhere all the time. I think they call that "all pervausive". You h's bad behaviors aren't all pervausive, they're intermittent, maybe.

Really, we all fall somewhere on the personality range or go up and down on it in different areas, or different times of our lives. Npd & aspd are two of the worst, but it's not all good, all the time, below that level either. It's a struggle for us all. We can be all be compulsive, or obessive, or narcissist, and all use the defense mechs along the way in healthy or unheatlthy ways. Labels aren't what matter whatsoever, but rather addressing the bad behaviors that create, and contribute to our problems, in whatever combination that we individually have them, that's what matters. I was an enabler too. I didn't realize that was enabling but I was. I thought I was kicking and screaming, not enabling. lol! But by not doing something differently when what was clearly not working for me, I enabled him to keep doing it, in a way that hurt me more. He still does it, but it doesn't hurt me anymore. If we buy p, if we recommend movies, if we engage in p-induced sex acts, then we're enabling. If we don't do whatever it takes to stop them from hurting us, we enable. If they tap us for inappropriate emotions, and we respond emotionally, we enable.

In a relationship it is ALWAYS two people. It's three things YOU, HIM, and the relationship. They say we don't come in healthy enough to start off with, I wonder who does? But it makes sense, if I'm sick, and he's sick, the relationship can't help but be sick too. And so everyone has to fix our ME parts, and then we might be able to grow the WE part from a healthier place.

I think he's not wanting to use any labels, and instead address that behaviors that are damaging, which is being a good therapist imo. People get stuck with labels, and they are use in all sort of weird inappropriate ways, like as excuses. But we dont' care what it's called, we just want it to stop, so don't ever get stuck on any label. Even if we have them, we can change our behavior, and then they won't apply to us anymore, thus no more that label for us. There are helpful as general category describtive words, and that's about it. It sounds like he wants you to focus on you, while your h works on himself, and then the relationship after that. We really kind of work on all three at once, but it's hard.

You are right in that you did not enable you h in the way you said because YOU DIDNT EVEN KNOW. You are right, 100%. ONE element resolved. But that's not the only thing that's meant by enabling? did you turn the other way? did you ignore signs? did p not bother you at first? we you emotionally detached? There are like 50million elements and we have look at every one. Yes, no, yes, yes, no, no, no. They aren't any less wrong because we come to discover some of our own errors. They are wrong as wrong can be. But I don't think he's going to suggest that your h can keep p/mb/lying, he said stop the deception etc.... The deception has got to go no matter whose doing it, including any lies we might be telling ourselves, and any blinders we might have on too. It's never going to work right otherwise. Both of you have be real. He said your h was faking. I'm sure your not faking, but your confused, and your hurt, and you have your own soul holes to mend. There are things you need to hang onto, and things you need let go. What's done is done. Rehashing doesn't help near as much as learning how to do it better next time. Try to loose some of the context of blame. Or spread it out. In every little part of every element, I've found that when we get to the bottom of it the way to sum it up is it's MULTIPLE FACTORS. We all just a bunch of MULITPLE FACTORS, and we each have to sort our own, and ours together too. It's kind of like solving a big puzzle of, yours, mine, and our, dysfunctional multiple element factors. lol! It's never just ONE thing because everything is connected. But what's him is still HIM, and it's not you whatsover! But these are two way streets, and what's you is on YOU too. You need to pan out and get a big wider picture of view of all of it. You'll discard a lot of data along the way, and you'll absorb a lot of new stuff too. It's all good. We don't get to understand it all as we go though it, so it's almost always frustrating, and there's always new factors to unravel. Look for the truth, the universal truths of love and goodness, and connectedness. Get any lies out of you. And learn recognize the lies that might be still in him. That's the best thing you can do. When it's all said and done you will see you enabled but it was mostly inadvertantly, and it was because of what you learned wrong, or thought wrong. It's really just a journey back through thinking of what you would have done differrently if you had it to do over, knowing what you know now, etc... and more about learning new ways, new coping skills in order to do it better in the future. There's always creative methods we haven't considered yet. We're taught to think inside these boxes, just like they are, only we're in are different boxes. When they are "good enough" within themselves, and we are "enough" within ourselves, the boxes are gone! ya know? Everything we've experienced effects who we are, but we control how we react to our experiences and whether or not they hold us back or propell us forward. We're only victims as long as we choose it. For us, it was inadverntly choosing it, but it's still a choice, and by choosing it we inadvertently enable them.

[iambetrayed]

But that's not the only thing that's meant by enabling? did you turn the other way? did you ignore signs? did p not bother you at first? we you emotionally detached?

I guess maybe thats the kind of thing he was talking about. I told h that I am certainly willing to entertain what the therapist has to say. But I realy think he has us pegged all wrong. In thinking about your questions, for example:

did you turn the other way? No way, baby - the minute I knew something was up (and I honestly had NO CLUE until 12 weeks ago) I freaked - and I mean big time. I am not the turning away kind of chick.


did you ignore signs? No - this one I have gone over and over and over in my head (even long before you asked it) - because I still can't believe that I had been SO fooled for SO LONG? Why didn't I see this? Was there ever anything to see? I mean, there must have been at some point over 15 years, I would think. I actually can think of a few tiny things in retrospect, but I can honestly say that they did NOT send up red flags for me - so I can't say that I ignored them. I may have simply "missed" them. I guess because they were so seemingly out of character and I had no idea that I had any reason not to trust him.

did p not bother you at first? Ohmigosh, NO - I had never even seen it or thought much about it before this. H was never the type to have p or anything sexual around - I would have flipped out.

we you emotionally detached? No, I wouldn't say I have ever been detached. I'm usually a clinging vine co-dependeant type. Although I do feel a hint of sadness about the past year or so. I do think that we had drifted a bit. And I know that that was my h's worst time of acting out ever - he even began to feel like he was spiraling out of control. I keep thinking that maybe if I had tried to bridge whatever little bit of distance I perceived was coming between us at least maybe he wouldn't have gotten so far into p. I don't know, that feels like blaming myself.

Anyway - as always, I've lots to think about

[mo4wo1]

Personally? from what you have posted, it sounds like the therapist has not truly considered much beyond your H's side of the story. Either your H is not being honest with the therapist, honest with you or the therapist has some preconceived notions that may be getting in the way. A degree does not erase their personal opinions & ideas.

What I did with my H's therapist was go in & ask her a list of questions. thankfully, she got them right for me. But if she hadn't, I would have made it clear to her & my H, both< that I do not think she's the best therapist for my H at this time. Had to do this with the one I was seeing for my own issues before the one I have now.

[mo4wo1]

megan11 said:

Some Sh!t in his reply to you.
Um, go find yourself someone else, this person seems too wacked out and how DARE HE assume you should take some responsibility for your H actions!!!!!!!!!!! You are right, you did NOTHING that would make your H become a PA, nore could YOU have done anything to prevent it from happening!
Your therapist is an Id!ot!
WOW! I am appauled!

This too, lol!

I was not an enabler for my H & his addiction. I was ever vigilant until the "last year" (Oct 2004 to August of 2005) which ended with me asking for a divorce.

H just told me of his real enabler the other night. His "best friend". He downloaded P & then would let H watch it while he (the friend) would go play video games or eat lunch. That's enabling.

[shanti]

I am very experienced with therapy and based on what you wrote, I think you should switch to someone else. I would switch right away. I have NEVER heard of a therapist doing this--telling you what your H thinks while your H is sitting right there and can very well tell you himself. Especially since these seem to have been MISREPRESENTATIONS of what your H thinks and feels, and your H was sitting there in shock. That's what happened, right? This is not therapy. This is crazy. He should help you start a conversation about your beliefs regarding marriage, rather than just say that your H does not believe in it. I say get out of there before the therapist hurts your relationship.

[completelydone]

You are not an enabler unless you know about the problem, don't demand change, and help hide his problems. Enablers allow people to skirt their personal responsibilities by excusing their behavior; blaming it on other things and people instead of putting blame where it belongs. Actually, the shrink is enabling your husband not to take full responsibility by blaming you for not have ESP.

I also knew something was wrong but couldn't figure out what. I tried very hard to dig the problem out of husband so we could discuss and fix it, but to no avail. It got to the point where I suspected he was having an affair so I started snooping. I found nothing for a long time, and when I did I was shocked that the problems we had for so long stemmed from porn.

We aren't mind readers. Our husband's took great pains to deceive us and keep us wondering if we were crazy or if there were really something wrong with our relationships with them. That's why it's called gas-lighting.

You have every right to know what is being said in your husband's counseling sessions. There should be NO MORE SECRETS ever again between the two of you. I went with my husband to his counseling appointments. I heard everything that was discussed between him and his shrink. We both made that decision that there should be no more secrets; nothing said to someone else that he would hide from me. That's not intimacy to hide the truth from your spouse.

Hope you figure out what to do soon,
CD