What's this mean?

[2tired2deal]

OK, I know I shouldn't have done this, but I snooped! I didn't find any P (though he admitted to using from his PDA last week), but on his PDA he has a memo of things to remember like:

no one cares
you are not special
you are not entitled to anything
you are not worthy of love unless you earn it
there is no time for down time; there is always something you need to be doing
Fun is something the good people get; you don't deserve it
If someone hurts you, just take it bcuz you gave away the right to be hurt when you hurt your wife

I presume when he says "someone hurts you" he means me. ? I don't get where he got the not worthy of love and fun part. It's not like I get angry if he wants to play a video game or watch a movie, which he does frequently. ? I'm concerned about this attitude. He's in therapy for his PA and FOO issues, but I know this is a recent list as there are other things listed that are recent situations.

I'm worried that he is just not getting it. These statements seem like he feels that he's been bullied into "recovery", and this is how he sees is expected of him. However, to my face he says all the "right" recovery things from SAA. I feel like he is not being honest with me. Some of this I know comes from his lack of confidence and self-esteem. Before this list, I had other, subtle indications that he may not be as "recovery minded" as he appears to be, more like he is "put upon" by having to give up P and M. But, he is good at saying all the right things when I ask him if he is genuinely working recovery because he wants to. I don't intend to speak to him about this, as this is his personal thing, I'm just trying to understand this dual personality that I sense from time to time.

Any insights?

[megan11]

Sounds to me that list is very recovery minded AND full of depression and guilt. Its very similar to a list that my H had made. The fact of "no downtime" is to keep himself busy so he doesnt go P. Sounds like it could also be a therapy list a "feelings" list. But thats just my opinion.

[2tired2deal]

Hmmm...I don't think it's a list of feelings, as it is titled "Remember:". There are other things on the list that don't disturb me that are clearly things he is trying to teach himself, like "if I want to get into shape, I have to work out at the gym".

[completelydone]

Yeah, that's not a healthy list he has there. It's very self defeating and it sounds like he thinks he must pay for what he did instead of fixing and healing what he did. That's not good. No amount of punishing himself will make up for what he did to you. NOTHING will make up for what he has done to you. What he should be doing is re-learning life, love, sex, relationship, communication in a healthy way that is productive for all involved, not trying to punish himself until he's paid for his crimes.

Take care,
CD

[dazednconfused]

tootired-
this list is not about you. These statements are not about being "bullied" into recovery This list is proof positive of the addict's core belief "I am unworthy of love" Have you read Patrick Carnes?
If he is attemptng sobriety, is he attempting recovery? I found a list similar to this one, followed by little arrows as to where he "learned" this. It was an excercise my husband was doing to recognize bullsh!t beliefs and remember that when he was thinking "you are worthless" to fill that with "you are loved" but the pieces to fill in the positives were not written down. All in all, the list just broke my heart that he would feel that way. Broke my heart more to see "where" he learned it.

I hope this is a reflection of why he needs to recover and part of that process for him and not a list to "keep him down"

peace and prayers
dazed

[P]

sounds like PMS - poor me syndrome

this mode will lead him to use

[susan]

I agree with P. It's a pity party.

I also think that it's a ploy to make you feel sorry for him, too, because he sure as crap knows you look through his PDA.

[mo4wo1]

Random thoughts? Poor lessons learned badly? A pity-party? A sign of depression? Withdrawal? A manipulation? A moment's vent?

He's the only one who can answer this.

I snuck into some of H's writing once. We had been doing the work in "Relationship Rescue". He stopped doing it & our problems were returning. So, I took a chance & read though it. There, I found that he had written that when we weren't having sex, he didn't miss it at all. I think the quote was, "When we are not having sex I do not miss it. I even forget about it." I took that personally, like I wasn't enough or right for him. I now realize that it was because he was MB'ing once to three times a day. Of course he wouldn't miss it when he was already giving it to himself, lol! Few would!

Being me, I told him what I did, apologized & then demanded an explanation. All I got was, "That was the truth. I just didn't miss it!" and anger & a few I-don't-knows. Only recently has he admitted that's why he felt that way.

[2tired2deal]

Thanks for all of your responses. Having thought about this some more, here's what I'm feeling about this now. He's definitely depressed, and I believe this is an expression of self-pity and possibly him not quite "getting" recovery. I don't have a problem with him feeling these things, or not quite "getting" recovery (he'll figure it out, or not, at his own pace), that's really not what's concerning me, what concerns me is that he is not being honest with me about this. As I know all SO's here have experienced, my PAH has serious issues when it comes to honesty. I know this comes from him being afraid of rejection by me, but it is also his effort to control my feelings. I have expressed to him that I want honesty, even if it is something that he is worried would cause me to leave. I've explained to him that I might NOT leave, if he can start getting real with me about his addiction. Since June 2007's d-day, he has slipped twice, that I know of, and lied about them both, but finally came clean this past Sunday night (at 2 AM, I might add). Had he told me of his slips (no details, just "I slipped with p and m, or whatever) w/in 24 hrs, as per our agreement, I would have been disappointed in him, but I would feel like trust is being built by his willingness to be honest. I've told him this many times since our initial d-day in August of 1997, it's the secrecy that's killing our relationship, not just the P. When he slips but chooses to hide it, I feel that he is trying to keep me from leaving, but still be able to have his P&M. I really don't plan to tell him what I found, because I don't want to direct him in his recovery, and I want to see if he can get honest with himself and me.

[zerotolerance]

It sounds to me like the script of a broken soul. Like he feels, or thinks, or both, that he's "not good enough". I think this is perhaps a very common thought process among those with soul holes. The way to flip it is to stop engaging in the behavior that's causing it, ie p/mb or enabling. He won't ever be good enough until he does, and somewhere deep down they/we know it. "Not Good Enough" or "not enough", stacks up in us, burying the truth, and then the lie garbage we put in, or allow in, starts coming back out automatically in thoughts like these. Did you find any more? Could it be part of an exercise to see where his thinking is wrong? Although, if it were it seem likes it would have the correct thoughts beside it. Like....

no one cares - YES THEY DO, PEOPLE CARE
you are not special - EVERYONE IS UNIQUE and thus special
you are not entitled to anything - No your not entitled to p, or special treatment, or to engage in a cycle of abuse that hurts others, but we are entitled to be treated with respect.
you are not worthy of love unless you earn it - You can't Earn love, this is the tit/tat mentality. My h thinks he can EARN points or something, then he gives himself fake love as his reward.
there is no time for down time; there is always something you need to be doing - Balanced people make time for both
Fun is something the good people get; you don't deserve it - UH? I think he thinks fun is p maybe.
If someone hurts you, just take it bcuz you gave away the right to be hurt when you hurt your wife - It's not right for anyone to hurt anyone and the worst thing we can do is just take it, we need to address it.

I don't know why he wrote it, only he can answer that question. But there's a lot of RED flag thinking in it. I hope he's working on getting it out. But without more info on the context, it sounds like he is playing these bad scripts on purpose, and that won't EVER work to fix these problems. It's the wrong approach. It's the "I've been bad so now I have to punish myself" approach and that approach only grows bigger soul holes imo. I'm past thinking snooping is a problem, unless we get too compulsive about it. Otherwise we every right to know what's going on in our relationships, and that includes in their warped minds, imo. The fact that they can't share is a far BIGGER problem than the fact that we snoop sometimes. It's *cause and effect* imo.

[2tired2deal]

Thanks, zt I appreciate your thoughts. I'm fairly certain that this list of his is not part a recovery exercise, as there are other items, less disturbing, that I did not include in my post that are things he is trying to remember to do/be like. Previously, there were small things that indicated this "I'm bad and now I have to be punished" type thinking. One is that when we were going to separate in September, his folder for organizing his housing files was labeled "D getting kicked out", and right after d-day in June, he wrote down some thoughts about how it doesn't matter that he's been good 99% of the time, or something to that effect. That, of course, is not true about being "good" 99% of the time. He'd been in full relapse mode for the last 2 1/2 years, while I was none the wiser. He's deleted that file now, as I had asked him about that one and what he meant by it. It seems he still feels the same, not good enough.

Sadly, I don't think this is looking too good for him. I really just want him to get better, so that he can have a real life, whether that life includes being married to me or not.

[AmazingGrace]

Wow, those are some discouraging and very self-defeating statements. If I was telling myself stuff like that I would be feeding my food addiction, not helping get rid of it.

Not that your husband needs something else on his to-do list, but I would highly suggest he read something on cognitive behavior therapy, such as David Burns "Feeling Good." That book has been more effective than an anti-depressant for me to get over anxiety and depression.

He is going to make himself even more discouraged and depressed with such negative self-talk. Even if there are some half-truths in there (you are not "entitled" to anything), they are phrased in such a negative way that he's actually going to discourage himself from recovering.

Obviously, you can't "fix" him, but if you can hand him some tools that will help him take care of himself, then you know you've done what you can.