1.5 years into recovery and still devastated

[shanti]

My H told me last night that even though he has been almost perfectly p-free for over a year, his libido is still centered on his fantasy life, he still mb's more than twice a week, sometimes at work, sometimes when I'm in the next room... and he still doesn't find my body a turn-on, even though he finds me very beautiful.

I was relieved to hear that he's been p-free, but it sounds like he's still very actively addicted to fantasy and mb.

He is very caring in most ways. He does rage at me sometimes. We are intimate about once a month. I think if I tell him how much pain last night's revelations caused me, he'll be furious at me for "judging" or "attacking" him. And I don't want to be the fantasy police or the mb police.

Help! What should I do/say to reassure him but also tell him this is still not good for me? That, to me, it's not a marriage if his libido is 95% focused on fantasies, and hardly at all on me?

[tiger1m]

This forum is likely to yield more help to the member.

tiger

[emptyanddestroyed]

To me, as an so and I think my h would agree, fantasy can be and is just as damaging as p, if not worse. I think that p, fantasy and mb go together in an sa. When they fantasize, they are not facing reality, which is what p is all about. In the fantasy world, to them, they are perfect and their fantasy object is perfect. When you live in that world so much, it is very hard to be content and happy and arroused by anything in real life. Fantasizing is still objectifying in most cases.

When I found out my husband was a pa/sa, he had to quit p, but he also had to quit mb and fantasizing as well. I don't think that you can get truly better unless you do imo. I think the hardest part to stop is fantasizing because they have such a wealth of images in their heads. The hardest part for my h has been to keep the images from popping up into his head, even if he doesn't want them there.

I don't know if my comment helps, but just abstaining from p does not mean that you are no longer a pa. I believe that you have to truly change your view of the world and change how you live with emotions and the real world.

p.s. I was typing this before it got moved to this board and I can understand why you put it there, but I know that a lot of people have had debates on whether or not you need to stop mbing...so, hopefully this will help you here.

[LookingUp]

It sounds like he's just switched addictions - from porn/mb to mental fantasy/mb. My husband won't talk about it - but I think he did that for a couple years - not sure, may still be doing that. Our communication is really bad. About all you can do is make boundaries to protect yourself; learn to speak your truth in love and gentleness. My counselor and I found a way I could speak my truth so my husband didn't either rant at me or ignore me for days for judging him. "I feel <emotion> when you do <behavior>." Then I would (quickly) go to another room so he could process what I said without the knee-jerk reaction of trying to get me to take it back or feel shame for having an opinion different then his.

We've started watching Gary Smalley's videos "Hidden Keys to a Successful Relationship" and it's really made a difference - my husband is learning to listen without judging me for having an opinion different than his. Back when he was getting upset that my opinion was different, I'd often say, "I'm entitled to my opinion, the same as you're entitled to yours." After hearing that a couple hundred times, then he started adjusting that I was an individual and not just an extension of him and I was entitled to my own stupid opinion.

What boundaries do you have for his mental and mb unfaithfulness? What boundaries if he rages at you?

LookingUp

[LookingUp]

tiger1m said:

This forum is likely to yield more help to the member.

tiger

tiger1m, I respect your position as a moderator and feel you've been doing an excellent job; but both shanti and her partner have been members here for a long time. I'm a bit confused by your reply. Normally you're validating to SOs.

LookingUp

[iambetrayed]

Shanti -

I think it is important to consider what you mean (and what he means) by "recovery". It sounds like he is simply abstaining from porn, but that his actions are still negatively affecting your marriage, and probably the rest of his life. It really is not normal to mb at work. I know lots and lots of sa's have done it, but it isn't normal or healthy. It is indicative of using mb as a coping mechanism, which is at the very core of addiction.

What is your husband's definition of recovery? What kinds of steps has he taken to get better?

and he still doesn't find my body a turn-on, even though he finds me very beautiful.

See, this bugs me because IMO that is not the way that a guy who is a year into recovery should be looking at sex with his wife. It really isn't about whether your body conforms to his fantasies. Marital sex is supposed to be about making love - about making a deep connection between two people who really care about each other. It sounds like he is blaming your body for his own p-headed thinking.

I think if I tell him how much pain last night's revelations caused me, he'll be furious at me for "judging" or "attacking" him. And I don't want to be the fantasy police or the mb police.

Again, that level of defensiveness does not give confidence that this is a guy who is in serious recovery mode. And as far as being the police - do you want to have sex with your husband only once a month? If you do, that is fine - but if you would like more realize that his bi-weekly mb sessions are stealing his sexual energy away from you. I was seriously ticked when I found out that my husband didn't really have a low sex drive, but had been porning away the sexual energy that he promised me on our wedding day. (I am sorry for the rant if you feel differently, its just a touchy subject for me).

Help! What should I do/say to reassure him but also tell him this is still not good for me? That, to me, it's not a marriage if his libido is 95% focused on fantasies, and hardly at all on me?

I think that you are asking and answering your own question here. You just have to tell him how you feel about it. And I would take a serious look at exactly his recovery means to him and to you, if I were you. I have to agree with LU - it sounds like he has switched the p/mb for fantasy/mb.

Good luck to you, sweetie.

[completelydone]

Tell him how he made you feel. What the hell does he want from you anyway? Does he want you to become a stripper or porn whore so he can get his sicko jollies off on you? Does he want you to loose weight, tone up, tan, wear sexier clothes, get plastic surgery? Because you know what, he would still say the same thing and you wouldn't be good enough and he would still have his "fantasy life" (what a loser), because this isn't the least bit about a short coming within you, but within him. He's trained himself to be attracted to women who are fake, don't eat, do drugs, and gazillions of things to make themselves look like they do because it doesn't come naturally for most people. He has UNREASONABLE EXPECTATIONS of you and apparently none of himself- morally, relationally, spiritually, physically, or otherwise.

If you ask me he needs to be attacked. You need to point out every last despicable thing about him that has hurt you over the years. You need to point out that he isn't perfect either and you love him, and expect the same in return and if he can't give it, then he isn't worth YOUR time; not the other way around. Now, of course, you can ignore my advice, but you're a year and a half into this and he still isn't even coming close to getting it. What do you have to lose?

Take care,
CD

[shanti]

Thank you for all your caring replies. I should have been clearer about him not being turned on by me; I asked him specifically whether my female parts were a turn-on. He was not complaining; he just gave me an honest answer. I'm sure he wishes he felt differently.

We had a tough talk last night in which he said that I am contemptuous towards him. That I don't like him or respect him. I feel terrible because I have indeed struggled with feelings of contempt towards him. I have trouble respecting what I view as narcissism, rage, arrogance, and, yes, contempt.

I think contempt is one of the most contemptible attitudes a person could have. It's dehumanizing towards its object, and I've tried to dedicate my life to NOT dehumanizing people. For me, it's the opposite of love, and at the root of most of society's problems. I realized what makes me most upset about H is when he triggers my feeling of contempt. Of course my feelings are my own responsibility.

When we got married, H used to do a lot of things that grossed me out--like picking his nose, and other habits like that, things I found disrespectful...And I battled with him about all these things. And he has pretty much cut them all out. But I can understand that our relationship paid a big price, with him feeling that he grosses me out, that I feel contempt or loathing for him. His mother made him feel that way, too.

So I think that is background about why he feels so judged about his addiction. I feel sympathy for his addiction, and I feel sad and angry. Maybe I do also feel a little superior about it, like I'm better than that, and I deserve better.

So I think the answer to my question is I really have to stop judging. I have to try to understand him with tenderness and sympathy. At the same time, I have to take care of myself, and look for happiness, and honestly see if my search for my own happiness takes me toward him or away from him.

[tiger1m]

Thread was moved as a judgment call on my part for the benefit of member shanti and the overall board. No offense was intended.

I apologize for any hurt this decision caused.

tiger

[completelydone]

We had a tough talk last night in which he said that I am contemptuous towards him. That I don't like him or respect him. I feel terrible because I have indeed struggled with feelings of contempt towards him. I have trouble respecting what I view as narcissism, rage, arrogance, and, yes, contempt. I think contempt is one of the most contemptible attitudes a person could have. It's dehumanizing towards its object, and I've tried to dedicate my life to NOT dehumanizing people. For me, it's the opposite of love, and at the root of most of society's problems. I realized what makes me most upset about H is when he triggers my feeling of contempt. Of course my feelings are my own responsibility.

Just be careful not to hold yourself in contempt. Right now he is not worthy of respect, he is worthy of contempt for what he has done; for what he is still doing.

I'm sorry, but it just seems ridiculous and unrealistic to ask any human being to respect someone who is abusing them. Should the Jews have respected Hitler? No way!! Don't dehumanize yourself. YOU are important, YOU have value, YOU deserve better than this. HE is contemptuous toward you, HE is holding you with NO honor or respect in his heart, HE is not being loving toward you. So, when do you count, shanti? When?

[shanti]

Thank you all for your responses.

Just an update... We had another talk ... Both therapists he has seen have told him that fantasy and m/b should not be in his "circles" (the inner circle of forbidden behaviors, or the middle circle of behaviors to resist)... so he hasn't really tried to resist them. That seemed so strange to me, and I am kind of angry at his therapists.

I mean, I am not religious and I don't believe that all m/b is sinful, but he is obviously still using it to medicate his anxiety. And it's not a healthy coping strategy, given that he is married to a wife who feels so betrayed by his behavior. I guess his therapists are focused on healing him but not on healing the marriage. The marriage is not their patient. But hasn't he made it clear to them how much he wants to keep the marriage?

I also think you are all so right, that he promised ME that energy when we took our marriage vows. And I told him that. But I didn't demand that he quit right away. I asked him to consider resisting for a week, as an experiment. He said he'd talk about it with his therapist.

Mostly he thinks that his path is not about restraining his fantasies and m/b, but about building a better self-image, a better relationship to his body, and a better relationship with me, where he feels closer to me and safer with me... so that he can build a s3xual relationship with me... without so much shame. He has felt so ashamed... even when I'm not feeling angry or judgmental. He feels ashamed to be naked around me.

He also said that the addiction doesn't feel as desperate as it used to, and it doesn't make him s3xualize everyone he sees on the street any more...

I feel a little better, I'm able to eat again and function...but I am still having nightmares about him betraying me. In the dreams I am so angry! I yell and throw furniture!

I had a long talk with my therapist about how H and I get into a rivalry mode, a blaming mode, how we get into these awful fights and how it reinforces the distance and distrust... And how I have to refuse to take the bait when he gets into that mode. We need to stick to the loving mode, to remember that we sink or swim together; we can't "win" a fight at the other's expense. It's hard not to take the bait because I obviously am still so angry inside. But I also see that making him feel more shame is not going to help either of us. That's what started his addiction in the first place. I have to hold on to the loving mode.

Thanks again for all your responses and for all your posts. You are such a great help to me! It's so good to know I am not alone.