nina
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trying to forgive and heal
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Post by nina on Dec 16, 2007 21:04:19 GMT -5
I want to start off by saying that I understand mens' need/desire (?) to mb - especially if they aren't in a committed relationship or if they are in an unhappy or sexually unfullfilling relationship.
however...understanding that PAs are not normal men in the sexual/visual sense, I'm also beginning to understand (and have been told this by the men on this forum) that PAs are unable to and absolutely cannot mb in a sexually healthy way the way normal men (non-PAs) can and do.
I guess the next thing that I'm trying to understand and wrap my brain around, is this: why is it that ALL men can't simply mb to their own thoughts alone (like most of us women do)? why is it that men always want visuals to accompany their mb-tion sessions and/or why are these visuals sought out for mb fodder at a later time? don't men consider themselves mentally creative enough to visualize their sexual fantasies in their minds? with all of the PAs that are roaming the earth, apparently not.
I have heard time and time again that men are the 'more visual' of the sexes and that this is the main reason that they seek out porn to mb to. is this really true? I mean, I guess in theory it is - but it just seems to me that if this is truly the case, [trigger]then we (women) are also very visual and also are more than capable of becoming sexually aroused at (and having orgasms to) the sight of a hot-looking naked guy.[/trigger]
I'm aware that there are also women PAs but, not nearly as many as there are men PAs.
The largest sexual organ on a man AND a woman is the human BRAIN. I just don't understand what the big deal is about this and why men (PAs and NON-PAs) take the lazy way out using visuals instead of just using their imaginations to fantasize with.
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facingit
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Post by facingit on Dec 16, 2007 21:24:24 GMT -5
I guess the next thing that I'm trying to understand and wrap my brain around, is this: why is it that ALL men can't simply mb to their own thoughts alone (like most of us women do)? why is it that men always want visuals to accompany their mb-tion sessions and/or why are these visuals sought out for mb fodder at a later time? don't men consider themselves mentally creative enough to visualize their sexual fantasies in their minds? with all of the PAs that are roaming the earth, apparently not. Nina, one explaination I've heard for why men are more turned on by visuals than women is that, biologically speaking, men are wired to seek partners with high "reproducability" ratings while women are wired to seek partners with high "survivability" ratings. "Reproducability" ratings (literally the ability to produce healthy offspring) can often be determined visually and it has been scientifically proven that many visual cues - such as a certain hip to waist ratio - have been hardwired into men's subconscious as turn on's. Women on the other hand, are wired to seek partners who have the ability to survive and provide. For many thousands of years survivability has had more to do with social characteristics than physical ones (ie, the fat out of shape tribal chief has a better survivability rating than even the most physically attractive slave) so therefore women are more intuned to social/ situational traits. Hence the ability to fantasize. In any case, it makes no more sense to criticize men for their "inability to fantasize" than it would make to criticize a woman for her inability to get all hot and bothered by P. And, from a certain perspective, it makes no more sense to criticize a man for seeking a partner that he finds visually attractive than it makes to criticize a woman for wanting to find a man who is "strong, confident, smart, and funny" since those are all survivability traits. To understand the addictive power of P for men, try to imagine there was some sort of technology that you could plug into that would allow you to experience the exact character traits you find attractive in a man at the drop of a dime.
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Post by longhair19 on Dec 16, 2007 21:44:14 GMT -5
Speaking just for myself, if I just sit in front of my computer and [trigger]try to imagine someone that turns me on, all I can recall is a vague, fleeting memory that flitters just out of the reach of my peripheral vision. When I view P, it's like a jolt that courses through my eyes and down my spine. Furthermore, the P image stays with me for a while, as if it were burned into my retina. This is the main reason I joined this site and committed myself to stop using P[/trigger]...I got sick of laying down at night and seeing visions of the P I just looked at in the dark.
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nina
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trying to forgive and heal
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Post by nina on Dec 16, 2007 22:09:46 GMT -5
In any case, it makes no more sense to criticize men for their "inability to fantasize" than it would make to criticize a woman for her inability to get all hot and bothered by P. I don't think I'm 'criticizing' men as much as I'm just wondering outloud why they're unable to mb using their imaginations instead of only just visuals. I've read the evolutionary argument you've posted regarding why men are the more 'visual' of the species and how it's 'hardwired' into their psyche. as I've said before, although this argument seems to be the case in THEORY, I highly doubt that this primal 'hardwiring' makes men UNable to achieve mb with mental stimulation only. I think it's more than a possibility that men use this argument as an excuse and a justification to use porn without guilt or shame. and who said women were unable to get 'hot and bothered' by viewing porn? do you honestly believe that women aren't as visual sexually as men are? a man 'seeking a partner that he finds visually attractive' is VERY VERY different than him seeking any visually attractive naked woman/teen in porn to mb to. two TOTALLY DIFFERENT things! how can you even compare men viewing porn to get off on to men who are looking for a physically attractive life partner? but see, this is the point that you seem to be missing. I wouldn't need this hypothetical technology you speak of to 'experience the exact character traits that I find attractive in a man' - I can (and already do) 'experience' this in MY MIND. when I mb, I don't need to and never have used porn - all I have to do is let my mind wander and take me to places that porn never could! it's just a shame that men can't harness this use of creative sexual imagery as I do and as many MANY women do. BUT - I do understand where you were going with your hypothetical technology analogy and even though I feel it wasn't a very good one, it did illustrate your point effectively.
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nina
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trying to forgive and heal
Posts: 126
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Post by nina on Dec 16, 2007 22:13:57 GMT -5
Speaking just for myself, if I just sit in front of my computer and [trigger]try to imagine someone that turns me on, all I can recall is a vague, fleeting memory that flitters just out of the reach of my peripheral vision. When I view P, it's like a jolt that courses through my eyes and down my spine. Furthermore, the P image stays with me for a while, as if it were burned into my retina. This is the main reason I joined this site and committed myself to stop using P[/trigger]...I got sick of laying down at night and seeing visions of the P I just looked at in the dark. thanks for posting, longhair (& welcome to NP!) so....what you're basically saying is that when you try to imagine an erotic visual or fantasy, it isn't as strong as viewing porn because the sexual images you try to imagine in your mind fade away faster than you can use them to mb with. thanks for putting it this way as it helps me to understand a little better why it is that men use actual visuals instead of their imaginations.
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facingit
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Post by facingit on Dec 16, 2007 22:40:11 GMT -5
as I've said before, although this argument seems to be the case in THEORY, I highly doubt that this primal 'hardwiring' makes men UNable to achieve mb with mental stimulation only. I think it's more than a possibility that men use this argument as an excuse and a justification to use porn without guilt or shame. Listen Nina, Could a PA MB only with fantasy and no P. Yes. Could a PA MB only left handed? Yes. Could a PA MB only while gargling salt water and counting backwards from 100? Probably. Do we? No. Is there a reason? Yes - it's the way we are. Now, my question for you is are you really interested in understanding PA's or are you trying to propogate some theory about male sexuality and how it should be versus how it is? We're on a recovery forum. I think most of the men on here have a decent ammount of "shame" and "guilt" surrounding P. Edit: Okay Addict70 - I edited my post.
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Post by addict70 on Dec 16, 2007 22:48:35 GMT -5
Just a theory, but maybe it's because most P is geared and marketed twards men and we're conditioned to a degree to beleive it's acceptable behavior. For me I didnt really just use P, it was always a combination of P and fantasy to get the most extreme effect possible. I still have a vivid imagination, and if I wanted to it would be enough to at least get the job done, but it'll be awhile before I use it for such things again.
Feel free to trash that theory though. I'm just kinda pulling it out of the air and I dont study theory much.
Edit: come on guys, play nice
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nina
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Post by nina on Dec 16, 2007 23:30:48 GMT -5
Listen Nina, Could a PA MB only with fantasy and no P. Yes. Could a PA MB only left handed? Yes. Could a PA MB only while gargling salt water and counting backwards from 100? Probably. Do we? No. Is there a reason? Yes - it's the way we are. it's the way you are? oh, ok. I'm not trying to 'propogate' anything. I was just thinking aloud and wondering if I could get some people's opinions on the topic of my thread. I'm trying to understand this insidious and destructive addiction that has forced itself into my life for over a decade. it was just something I was wondering - if men could just mb to their fantasies using their imaginations instead of always wanting to use visuals. first of all, I meant and should've typed PAs IN GENERAL (read: ALL PA's, not just the men on this forum) may possibly be using this theory to justify their use of porn.
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nina
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trying to forgive and heal
Posts: 126
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Post by nina on Dec 16, 2007 23:47:35 GMT -5
Edit: come on guys, play nice 'come on, "guys" play nice?' why are you including me in this? I was asking a simple question and didn't say anything derogatory towards him or towards anyone. I simply stated that it was more than a possibility that ALL PAs, not just the ones who post on this forum, might use the prior discussed theory as a justification/excuse to use porn. I also am not the one who was asked to 'edit' their post. anyway, it's good to know that at least some men still have (and are able to use) their imaginations to mentally visualize whatever their sexual fantasies are without the use of actual visuals. and I don't trash the theory you posted either. I'm aware that alot of people (men in particular) feel that this theory has validity. it's also good to see men posting here to try to understand and control their porn addictions. it's very encouraging for me to see this and am hoping one day on his own in the (hopefuly) very near future that he will decide to quit using porn and to take the actual steps necessary to work towards this goal. sorry that your marriage has ended. it's sad for everyone involved (believe me, I know, me and my children are going through this right now ) . I wish you lots of luck in your journey. nina
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kall
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Post by kall on Dec 16, 2007 23:54:14 GMT -5
I personally, throughout my experience easily could m to my imagination. But there are a couple of problems with this, in my case. A. The brain, or my flesh, or my sex drive or whatever you want to call it, seems to tell me that i get a better feeling when i m to p. Most often this isnt actually true, if anything all it means is a prolong the session longer, and get more feeling out of it. B. When i do m to my imagination, more often than not, as disgusting as it is, my thoughts turn towards people i know, and this makes me feel worse than when i m to p. I do agree with the Visual thing being used as an excuse, in a way. But i think in my opinion, most PA have some kind of thing that tells them its better to m to p. I think Female P viewers would have the exact same feeling, in my personal opinion. Peoples sex drives differ individually. Some men will never feel it, and some women will have it stronger than a lot of men. And vice versa. If that doesnt make sense, thats just unstructured typing
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Post by fragile on Dec 17, 2007 0:04:04 GMT -5
Never mb'd to visuals. I've always visualized in my mind what I'm fantasizing about... I'm not very proud of that though. It doesn't take more than a small thought to get me aroused and cause urges.
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anew
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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a habit." - Aristotle
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Post by anew on Dec 17, 2007 1:57:56 GMT -5
What is with all these threads - It's a recovery board. If you wish to understand these things, use the search function and read.
For me - it's the same as a post already in this thread. MB can occur regardless of whatever stimulus or prohibitions are placed on it, for some it's just wrong - for me fantasy is certainly just wrong.
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nina
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trying to forgive and heal
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Post by nina on Dec 17, 2007 8:03:36 GMT -5
What is with all these threads - It's a recovery board. If you wish to understand these things, use the search function and read. For me - it's the same as a post already in this thread. MB can occur regardless of whatever stimulus or prohibitions are placed on it, for some it's just wrong - for me fantasy is certainly just wrong. anew, 'these threads' are threads that are created because most of us are trying to figure this damn addiction out along with the many facets that go along with it. AND...I posted this thread in the GENERAL DISCUSSION FORUM. in case you hadn't noticed, the MEN'S RECOVERY FORUM is right below this general forum. and if my question disturbed you so much, why did you go ahead and answer it anyway? what is with people who (expletive) and complain about threads - but yet they go ahead and participate in them anyway? wow. you have your OWN recovery forum to post in. so, if you're not looking for answers the way that I am (and hundreds of others are), then you don't have to respond to 'these kinds of threads' - respond to threads that are posted within your own specially-created forum and leave this thread to those who do wish to contribute and add their opinions to it.
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Post by tiger1m on Dec 17, 2007 8:44:23 GMT -5
you have your OWN recovery forum to post in. so, if you're not looking for answers the way that I am (and hundreds of others are), then you don't have to respond to 'these kinds of threads' - respond to threads that are posted within your own specially-created forum and leave this thread to those who do wish to contribute and add their opinions to it. member nina, you asked and have received. If you do not like the answers you are getting then adhere to your own advice. You are the one creating a contentious and hostile environment not conducive to recovery from pornography. The general forum is open to all. Stop telling addicts to retreat to the addict forum because you don't like the responses you get. I note no addict in this thread has told you to retreat to the Partner forum. Do NOT tell anyone else in this forum where to post simply because they don't meet some standard you set for appropriateness! This is not a request. There are not hundreds of others antagonizing and baiting the addicts here but you certainly are.
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nina
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trying to forgive and heal
Posts: 126
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Post by nina on Dec 17, 2007 9:01:16 GMT -5
you have your OWN recovery forum to post in. so, if you're not looking for answers the way that I am (and hundreds of others are), then you don't have to respond to 'these kinds of threads' - respond to threads that are posted within your own specially-created forum and leave this thread to those who do wish to contribute and add their opinions to it. member nina, you asked and have received. If you do not like the answers you are getting then adhere to your own advice. You are the one creating a contentious and hostile environment not conducive to recovery from pornography. how am I making a 'contentious' and 'hostile' environment? by asking a QUESTION? only ONE person out of all the rest who responded to my thread had any problem with it! are some of the people in this forum (including you) out to get me? because to me, if a person is going to complain about my thread but yet participate in it, that just shows me that the person didn't really mind my thread so much as just trying to provoke me in a negative way. thank you. this is what I thought. well then perhaps you should tell addicts to stop telling ME to do a search inquiry on the net to receive answers to my questions or to go post on the partners forum (as has happened in the VERY recent past) just because THEY don't like the topic of my thread. anew has said this to me and I see you had no words to say to him about it. is it because birds of a feather flock together? I wonder... I will not tell anyone else in this forum where to post IF THEY EXTEND THIS SAME COURTESY TO ME AS WELL. tiger1m, just what is your problem with me? out of all the responders that answered my thread, only ONE (anew) had a problem with it. and I KNEW that the minute one of you would try and bait/provoke me within any thread I started or with any reply that I made to any other thread, that YOU would jump in and start with the threats. your 'this is not a request' threat doesn't intimidate me in the least, tiger. because there was and is absolutely NOTHING wrong with this thread or my question. I have seen worse questions on this forum asked by SO's on this board and the recovery board and you (nor any other moderator) steps in to say anything about it. YOU have a personal vendetta against ME and are just looking for justifications and excuses to get on my case. if you have a problem with me, take it up with me in pm or notify the webmaster. your continuous threats and attacks on me for no reason are really starting to get old and because of this, I am no longer going to read or respond to any posts you throw my way.
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