"How could you have been so stupid"?

[breakingfree]

Mrs. BF asked for the second time this week. This is a notable decline from 7-8 times a week in the beginning of my recovery.
"We had so much, such a great relationship. How could you have been so stupid to throw it away"?

This question used to be asked with an almost feral intensity, a searing anger and an almost overwhelming intensity. It is now asked less often with far less anger, and even sometimes a trace of the gentle smile I had all but forgotten.

My answer, " I was in complete denial about my addiction". Honest, yes. Satisfying to Mrs. BF OR me? No.

Everyone's story is different. We had been together for over ten years when my P use escalated causing a slow, but inexorable detioration in my marriage.

Perfect marriage before that? No, but pretty dam* good. Lots of real intimacy,sharing, fun. A great and spontaneous s** life. Kids doing well, weathered many crisis's through the strength of our commitment to each other and the marriage.

So what went wrong? P***? B.S. , too easy and answer. I had over ten years of recovery from my drug addiction, no slips, no falls, when my P addiction slowly escalated into the stratosphere.
There was some kind of a paradigm shift, so slow that it was all but unnoticeable until viewed with some perspective.

Again, the easy answer is denial. But what does that really mean? Did I have denial before and it got worse? Did it slowly creep into my life, destroying my clear thinking? Why did my denial continue to worsen, until it became an absolute? I don't really have any good answers to any of these questions. Every answer that I have raises more questions.

My recovery is much like my counseling techniques, goal oriented, very objective, a cognitive-behavioral approach. My recovery toolbox is very clean and well organized(unllike other parts of my life). I know exactly where all my tools are and have a pretty good handle on when to use them at this stage in my recovery

The scary thing is when Mrs. BF asks, "How can you have been so stupid?", and I answer denial, there is very little in my toolbox to repair THAT problem.

The first three months of my recovery are going pretty smoothly. My relationship with Mrs. BF had taken a 180 turn. What scares the hell out of me is my inability to adequately answer her question. I know recovery is in stages. How do I prevent another paradigm shift, back into denial? How will I know if I am in denial again, if I didn't know it the first time?

The other problem has to do with my recovery itself. The other question Mrs. BF asks is, "what made you change, what made you admit you are an addict and commit to recovery after so many year? Why now, when I had given up hope?" Can't answer that one either. My recovery was not a paradigm shift, it was an epiphany. One early Monday morning about 6 1/2 weeks ago while in the midst of cleaning out old P files I decided to google P support groups and found no-porn. Hours later I found myself reading and crying, crying and reading and I KNEW my head had been up my a** for the last 15 years. I KNEW I am an addict and in denial. I quit and everything began to chang.

Good stuff? Yes, absolutely. Good stuff, good story, but what REALLY happened? Don't know. How do you explain an epiphany, a rebirth? And the larger question, if I find myself falling back into bad behaviors patterns again, how do I create another epiphany? Can I? The fact that I have these questions (as does Mrs BF) scares the hell out of me, because if I don't really understand what happened, how do I know it won't happen again?

Feeling good but confused, and a little scared here on Desolation Row.

bf

[nrobinson]

BF,
Your story sounds eerily like mine. I've always looked at P, at least farther back than the 7 years I've known my wife. I've always known it was wrong. But I never wanted to quit. The appetite for P was stronger than the appetite for moral soundness. What it did take for me was also an epiphany. I've become much stronger in my faith in the last year. I've tried half-heartedly a couple times to quit looking at P. What it took was to fully understand (and experience, unfortunately) the pain and suffering it caused my wife.

What Mrs. BF asks you is the same as my wife has been asking me the last couple days:
"Every person has a breaking point...why did you wait until I was broken to realize it?"

By the grace of God, my wife hasn't walked out the door (yet.) I hope and pray that my actions enforce my words.

[Mayberry]

Friend, these are excellent questions. Wish I had some answers for you. I will only comment that epiphanies are just that: mystical experiences, on some level, sea-change realizations. I don't understand how my husband's happened, or why, but I know that it did, and I give thanks for it. Why do the poles flip (magnetic reversal)? I can read the technical explanations, but I come away with the sense that I sure don't understand it (and I'm not sure the experts do either).

To continue my awkward analogy: they DO flip, and when they do, there are
1. Far reaching changes and
2. Life adapts to suit the new situation.

You are early in your recovery, early and, it seems, strong, grateful and excited about the new you. I suspect it's of paramount importance to make sure you're aware of the changes that this personal epiphany has brought about in your individual and communal life and to continue pursuing the new "tools of survival and living" that will help you thrive in the new climate. Not very helpful, I'm sure, but your words "my recovery was not a paradigm shift, but an epiphany" really caught my attention. Something BIG, something profound DID happen for you, and you may never understand the hows and whys of that epiphany. That said, I have absolute confidence that you can and will come to understand the hows & whys of living a new life, a new paradigm, post-epiphany.

Shutting up now!

[P]

Perfect marriage before that? No, but pretty dam* good. Lots of real intimacy,sharing, fun. A great and spontaneous s** life. Kids doing well, weathered many crisis's through the strength of our commitment to each other and the marriage.

What would be a perfect marriage if this isn't the definition?

[dazednconfused]

breakingfree said:

. I know recovery is in stages. How do I prevent another paradigm shift, back into denial? How will I know if I am in denial again, if I didn't know it the first time?

bf- this is a great question, and one I have struggled with too, from the SO's mind. "if I didn't knw for all those years my h struggled with this addiction, how will I know if it happens again?" The bottom line is knowledge is power, secrecy feeds the addiction but knowledge, or better acknowledgement, goes a long way to killing it. You know NOW. Whether you admitted in the past, you KNOW NOW. The responsibility has shifted from an addict mindset to a recovery mindset. If you went back to drugs now, it would be a conscious choice, not a gradual slip. Your epiphany occured through knowledge- to return to p would now be a conscious choice again. With that knowledge, and acknowledgement came a responsibility you were unable to take up before. Now you have taken it.

Have you read "don't call it love"... it addresses the stages of this addiction's recovery. It also talks about 'piggy-backing" addictions, trading one for another.

breakingfree said:

And the larger question, if I find myself falling back into bad behaviors patterns again, how do I create another epiphany? Can I?

You don't need to create another epiphany, you need to break the patterns and "old behavoirs" the lead you up to acting out before you fall back into things. The skills to deal with whatever you used addiction to sooth or deal with don't fall out of the sky, you need to work on them and practice them, that is why recovery takes a while. I know you know this... I am just reminding you.

breakingfree said:

The fact that I have these questions (as does Mrs BF) scares the hell out of me, because if I don't really understand what happened, how do I know it won't happen again?

Because you are not your addiction. Because you have shone a light into the darkness of this addiction and you are not willing to live in darkness again. Because Mrs. BF is not willing to go into that darkness again either.. you both know you deserve better.

[larus]

The fact that I have these questions (as does Mrs BF) scares the hell out of me, because if I don't really understand what happened, how do I know it won't happen again?

it is frightening when you think of it. Not knowing what (invisible?) obstacle will be on the road next. Being frightened means you have a sense of the risks. That is why fear is important and functional. But you have found your way out of this one, and another one. Your will to become healthy has won over; not the addiction, not the fear. It is something to hope and pray for that this will happen again in (unhoped-for) similar situations in the future.

[Curious Voyager]

breakingfree said:

, but what REALLY happened? Don't know. How do you explain an epiphany, a rebirth?

My wife asked me this very question this morning and then withdrew it immediately. I know when and to some extent why but WHAT happened?

Step one, I think happened. The eyes of my understanding opened. I did tell her that for decades I was just a bad man who had bad habits. I was weak and sinful. Maybe WHAT happened is God letting me know--You're an ADDICT dummy! What happened, maybe I understood I am powerless by myself and I could either do something about it or die--those were my options.

Why? ? ? That great unanswerable question that drives this Voyager to the pillars of Hercules. Why did I become an addict? Why did it take me so long to begin recovery? Why does it take so much work? WHY WHY WHY? Some answers we may get on the other side.

One why I do have the answer for. Why did God provide me a means of escape? Because, He loves me, I am His child.

[everhopeful]

Yes, I'm guilty of asking my PA SO these same questions every few days: "Why did you let it get so bad in the first place?" and "You've promised to stop, change, yadda yadda, many times before only to go right back to it, what makes this time any different?" It usually becomes an argument because I'm never satisfied with his answer, he always says, "I was blind before, I let the p blind me, now you've helped me see the light and I never want to go back to that darkness." That's nice, but I still want a better answer! I always chalked it up to him not being introspective enough, avoiding really looking into himself for the answer. You guys now make me see that it's baffling to you as well, so I'll try to not be so hard on him.
Thanks!

I'll say that I dwell on these questions because it just hurts so much to know that I was not his number one and he was choosing la la land over having something real with me for so long, just as BF's wife said; he was throwing away the wonderful thing we could have been sharing TOGETHER. Another angle for me is, why be in a committed relationship if you'd rather be with pics and your hand? Why stay? I still don't understand why he kept holding on to me with empty promises over and over again when this other thing seemed so much better to him than me! I've voiced this to him and he says it wasn't better, he was just stuck in it, addicted. So he gives me these answers and I'll be honest, they still aren't enough. Even though he's working his recovery and trying so hard, I still have that "second best" feeling lingering inside, it's hard to to shake!

Just thought I'd share my insight as a healing partner.

[Curious Voyager]

everhopeful, I held onto my wife with empty promises to. Thing is i didn't know they were empty. God above knows I wanted to quit, I tried to quit. I thought about self-mutilation and suicide!

Though all of that, I ALWAYS loved her, she was my 1st pick. How can I convey to you how SICK I was how damaged my own thinking and feeling became during the height of my addiction.

You guys keep looking for answer that make sense, that hold some logic, that contain truth--You forget or don't understand that you asking this on people who are NOT normal any longer. we are sick and our whole beings have become distorted. It's like one of those parallel universe things where everything is flipped. We DON"T even know how to think and feel appropriately.

This is in nowise an excuse. We made our Selfs sick but we are SICK or if you prefer and I like it better anyway--We INSANE and in many ways that is true some even hit clinical stages and have to be institutionalized or do kill themselves.

do you really and think for a second, expect non-recovery or early recovery addicts to make sense of the disaster they have created and explain it to someone who isn't and hasn't been there?

I'll say this and let go. If I could right now sit down and answer all or most of these questions in a way that even mildly satisfied the partners about addiction--the New York Times best sellers list and Oprah endorsements are seconds away.

I would be famous and rich at last and knock Dr Phil off the rating chart with me new reality show. Monkey men in recovery, the real story behind porn and masturbation. See grown men scratch their heads as they try to figure out how to stop masturbation and looking at pornography in a room full of white-coat medical professionals, and stay tuned for next week when we implant electrodes and induce 100gigawatts of electro therapy, we'll reveal where the electrodes go after this break.

I refuse to be the voice of reason in the insane asylum.

[breakingfree]

Thanks everyone for the feedback, and support. I have been struggling with these questions for some time. I am not happy with giving Mrs. BF or myself the answer, "don't know"

Something BIG, something profound DID happen for you, and you may never understand the hows and whys of that epiphany

Mayberry, I guess I know this but am having trouble accepting it. I guess I am feeling guilty. Did I really deserve the first epiphany and if I screw up do I deserve another?

You don't need to create another epiphany, you need to break the patterns and "old behaviors" the lead you up to acting out before you fall back into things.

I agree and I am perhaps more comfortable with this except I just don't see the patterns, and I don't know why because I am usually very good at identifying behavior patterns, once I am aware of them

The eyes of my understanding opened.

I can really relate to this. When Mrs. BF and I discuss my epiphany I keep bringing up the story of Saul in the desert and God opening his eyes. I guess the problem is my spiritual/rational dichotomy. The spiritual side freely accepts epiphanies and God opening my eyes. The rational side says, "but there must shifting cognitions, behavioral antecedents, cues, cognitive state changes that you have failed to grasp.

I dunno, maybe, and I am really hoping this, given enough distance, perspective, introspection and time I will be able to integrate the spiritual explanations with the rational and feel more confident of the future.

Thanks to all,
bf

[nrobinson]

Everhopeful,
My wife has been saying the same things to me: she's upset that I'd chosen P and that she felt secondary to that. It was hard for me to admit this but, for me, P and MB were easier and more convenient. I have never been a very outward person, socially or sexually. Before I met my wife, it was far easier for me to satisfy myself with P than by going out and meeting someone. By extension, even after I was with my wife, sometimes it was easier and more convenient to use P than to be intimate with her. I hate that I have made her feel as though she's not as good as some nasties on the internet. It had never been a matter of her not being good enough. It's hard to make her believe that, though.

[dazednconfused]

bf-
one of the exercises my husband did was to look at his belief systmes and cycles. Using chapter 6 of OUt of the Shadows as a spring board, he sat down and drew a chart of his beliefs. 8 pages taped together to look like posterboard later, he was able to really identify some really unhealthy mindsets (and healthy ones too). Knowledge being power, when something happens and he falls back into one of these belief "mindsets" he realizes it and then doesn't react out of that place, but re-evaluates the situation. I hope this makes some sense. Maybe I should just have him respond.

peace-
dazed

[everhopeful]

even after I was with my wife, sometimes it was easier and more convenient to use P than to be intimate with her. I hate that I have made her feel as though she's not as good as some nasties on the internet. It had never been a matter of her not being good enough. It's hard to make her believe that, though.

Thanks Nrob, this is great! It's pretty much where my SO is coming from too. Before everything blew up and I was trying to "accept" his love of p & mb, I used to jokingly say that he did it because he was lazy and being with me took too much effort, now I realize that was a true, real component. He seems to have broken out of that lazy haze and it doesn't even seem hard to focus on me more now, which is lovely! He's even said that being intimate was "awkward" for him before but I guess now he realizes the benefits and that overrules the uncomfortable feeling he had about it before. This definitely stems from intimacy issues, I see that.

[breakingfree]

Mrs. BF was just home for lunch and read this thread for the first time. She pointed this out to me

I'll say that I dwell on these questions because it just hurts so much to know that I was not his number one and he was choosing la la land over having something real with me for so long, just as BF's wife said; he was throwing away the wonderful thing we could have been sharing TOGETHER. Another angle for me is, why be in a committed relationship if you'd rather be with pics and your hand? Why stay? I still don't understand why he kept holding on to me with empty promises over and over again when this other thing seemed so much better to him than me! I've voiced this to him and he says it wasn't better, he was just stuck in it, addicted. So he gives me these answers and I'll be honest, they still aren't enough. Even though he's working his recovery and trying so hard, I still have that "second best" feeling lingering inside, it's hard to to shake

She has asked me the same thing in almost the same words. This is yet another question about my addiction and recovery that I can't answer( I tell her when she asks that it the ADDICTION and the ADDICT acting out not me. (expletive), I don't know if this is an answer or an excuse. (expletive), (expletive), (expletive), (expletive), I CAN'T REMBEMER IF I EVER PROMISED HER I WOULD STOP. I know I didn't want to stop because I thought the problem was hers not mine. I guess this is something about me that I don't want to remember because I probably did PROMISE. The simple truth is that the fact I can't even remember is (expletive)ed up.

Dazed, thanks for the info. Anything that I can read and then actually do

Using chapter 6 of Out of the Shadows as a spring board, he sat down and drew a chart of his beliefs. 8 pages taped together to look like posterboard later, he was able to really identify some really unhealthy mindsets (and healthy ones too).

I think will help me feel like I am actually working on the problems not just struggling with the questions
bf

[megan11]

BF I didnt read the rest of the replies but i am glad you posted this in the general forum, i would have been more hesitant to reply if it were in the RA forum.
I admit to asking the same questions as your wife asked you. And getting the same reply as you gave her. I have come to realize that this addiction is complicated because i dont think that anyone CAN answer the why to this. I know my H cant. He can sit and ask himself WHY, HOW, WHEN and HOW again but he doesnt have the answer. The only thing that makes it harder for me is that he was caught, so when i ask the WHY along with HOW are you not P/MB now, its harder to accept the answer because he didnt bring it to an end himself, he was caught.
My H and i actually laughed last night about his P/MB issues. I almost didnt make it to the bathroom i was laughing so hard. He told me of all his paranoid thoughts and actions just so he could P/MB Even how he would fall asleep while in the middle of P/MB and would wake with his thang in his hand still, movie still going. We laughed at how he hoped i didnt walk in, or someone at his job, while he was there to see him like that.
I mean, could he answer the WHY then? LOL He couldnt even see then what was so wrong with that situation, LOL
I think what i am saying is that me and Mrs BF will always ask why, even if you dont ever have the answer to it (or my H to me) I believe that you dont know and might never ever know.
Monkey man is right, we are looking for logic because we dont understand and because we hurt and want our men to make it right and say the right things to make it right.
Honestly, can any of that ever be fixed and made right again to the point of us women forgetting it ever happened? No, Can it be fixed and made right again to the point that our H will show us their love and honesty? Yes
Ok, I dont know if i made ANY sense here or not because my brain is so mixed up, so i will just hit "post Reply" and go with it, LOL
I do however wish you well and hope that you continue to beat your beast, see, even that doesnt sound right...
I WISH YOU WELL AND CONTINUE TO STAY SOBER! (There we go!)
Give Mrs BF a hug and keep showing her just how very important she is too you, if you do i am sure all will be well.